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Svipdag

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 2:47 am

sounds awesome, I'm for it as proposed in the earlier posts, except one milestone which I think would be problematic is the Progenitus milestone: How can we obtain "relics" from established members of the order if we don't have any members yet? How about intead we require the knight-to-be to either obtain it from an existing knight or to craft or otherwise obtain something and present it as a gift (to be accepted or rejected) to the Order as a whole.
Also on the Diplomat milestone: Why require them to hold a joint weapons-making session? Why not any other type of event? I think that, to qualify as meeting the diplomat milestone, the knight-to-be should have to attend multiple practices at multiple realms (as described), must be involved in the planning of some event at a realm other than his/her own, and must obtain a writ of approval from each realm which (s)he attended, attesting his/her positive impression on that realm, or from at least one other realm.
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Eldrin THE BLACK

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:37 am

Some good ideas!
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Kairi Cypmann

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:02 am

I really like your ideas on the Diplomat milestone in particular, Svipdag. I'm for them.

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Tygreive

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:43 am

ugh, i need to do some ranking.
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Svipdag

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:50 am

lol, I'm most interested in the diplomat milestone cuz I'm practically the Haven Ambassador to Alterra right now, and every practice I go to is at a non-haven realm...
but that's off topic. *edited to conceal idiocy*
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Angus
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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:43 am

No offense to Tyr, but i do not think there should be any concessions for people lacking martial prowess. As it stands, the only proposed battle test is one of spirit and endurance, where winning or losing is a non-issue. It was also mentioned that what matters is that a knight show improvement over time, not necessarily that they reach a certain level of prowess.
I propose a Quest:

Attend regular fighting practices, constantly strive to better yourself, and become well-respected for your skill on the battlefield. You must face each knight in your realm, as well as two or more knights from at least two other realms, in single combat. You must do this once at the beginning of your journey, and once when you believe yourself ready to attain knighthood, and you must accept any challenge from a Knight of the order, at any time in between.

This is the first quest given, and the last quest completed before attaining knighthood. Completion of this quest is subjective, and at the sole discretion of the knights who have actually fought the candidate.
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Angus
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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:46 am

Orrin None-son wrote:
I don't think the idea of ravenwood members gaining rank in Haven would be good for building comradery. Picture this, (just using names I know) Angus joins Gates and decides to start ranking. He spends two months getting together the requireed garb, gear adn skills required. Then begins the proccess. after a month he gains one rank. Then waiting the required month he gains another. Gates of summer arrives one week later. Eldrin of Ravenwood asks to take the tests, and ranks all three permissablein one event. How do you think our little Angus would feel about all his hard earned ranking now? After months of hard work, a non-member outranks him after only 3 days.

A point well made. I recant my earlier statement.
I like the independent order/quest idea much better anyway.
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Constantine

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:02 pm

I haven't previously done much reading or posting in this thread, but I just read the whole thing, and the idea sounds good. Eldrin's long post about the possible requirements [6 events +2 Rags, obtaining a relic, etc.] would definitely show that somebody has dedication. I know that in my case it would probably take closer to 8 or 9 years though, at least at the current rate of 1 event per year, haha. But I'm not saying the requirements should be changed. I just don't have the necessary resources [time, money, transportation] to frequent events. But I think over time, anyone who's genuinely dedicated to Dagorhir will meet most of the requirements without really trying. So by the time I'm like 30 or 40, I'm sure I'll have made it to 6 events, 2 Rags, I'll have a sizable arsenal and probably a couple complete sets of armor. Somewhere along the way I might be given a relic by someone. The stuff that would be left would probably be a simple matter, writing up a tutorial, visiting some other realmsí practices and the like. Iím not saying that the requirements are easy, just that given time, they can be completed naturally by simple, yet dedicated, participation in the activity.

I'd support the creation of something like this. Even though I've barely taken the first step in becoming a Knight in Haven, haha. I'll probably be in my 20s before that happens.
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Angus
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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:41 pm

I actually think that some of the quests (other than Campaigner) should be more difficult. Other than the Campaigner Quest, I could become a knight in a couple of months if I had more money, and more free time. Knighthood should reflect dedication, and a commitment to hold oneself to a higher standard, in all aspects of Dagorhir. Not just on the battlefield, but off, and there should be no shortcuts for people with more money or more stuff. You should have to make all of your own weapons and armor for the weapon and Armor quests. (a bow should not be mandatory imho, as generally this is something you buy, not make, and shows that you have some money to spend, or a generous friend, but not necessarily that you are deicated.)
There should be another quest to make yourself at least one complete set of quality "veteran" garb.
(see the Veteran Illustration in the Dag handbook).

I don't necessarily have an idea for another quest, but I think there should be several more. To be honest, as the quests stand now, I will have a good majority of these quest requirements fulfilled before my first Ragnarok. I would personally like to be working on quests for the entirety of those 3-5 years, so that I don't have to just wait around for the other 6 events and the next Rag.
I might even say that you could expand the timeline to 5-10 years. (idk, maybe I should shut up and just do SCA instead) Perhaps the quests should scale based upon each individuals resources, and status. For example, since I already create and maintain a substantial armory, I would be expected to do more in the way of arms and armor construction than a person with more limited resources who only has one or two weapons.

I think the key to success for a group like this is to make it difficult, but kind of fun, and to make sure that when a person achieves one goal, they always have something higher to strive for, so that they are constantly challenged. I also think that the higher-level quests should focus a lot more on giving back to the realm and the greater Dagorhir community.

Perhaps there should be a core set of quests that each knight must complete, and then a number of ad-hoc quests to be assigned on an individual basis, at the discretion of the order. To become an Eagle Scout, there is a core of merit badges that must be completed, as well as a number of other badges of the scout's choice. I think this could be a good model to emulate, but where the Order chooses which other quests to charge each knight.
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:25 pm

Quote :
Perhaps there should be a core set of quests that each knight must complete, and then a number of ad-hoc quests to be assigned on an individual basis, at the discretion of the order.

Seconded.

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Crux

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:23 pm

I know I'm new to this board, but I'm not new the idea of knights. Coming from an amtgard origin, there's a strict, kingdom wide set of requirements for becoming a knight, and once you've met those requirements the other knights have to vote you in. (not saying this is the way you all should do it) Also there are 3 ways to become a knight. 1: Service, 2: Combat, 3:Arts and Science.
Personally I like the idea of having to embody all of these qualities. The quest idea is fantastic, and I think they are hard enough as is most likely. In regards to what Angus said about being able to meet them in a few months if he had the time/money, that in my opinion would show dedication by spending the money and taking all that time to try and achieve this. Building all those weapons and armor takes a lot of time and with school and jobs it seems like it would take a good while just for those, as well as finding the time to do inter-realm stuff.

Also, I don't know a lot about Dag ranking and what it affects, if anything. Is this just more or less a group of like minded people recognizing each others dedication within any area that recognizes them?
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Constantine

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 9:19 pm

Crux wrote:
Also, I don't know a lot about Dag ranking and what it affects, if anything. Is this just more or less a group of like minded people recognizing each others dedication within any area that recognizes them?

Pretty much, yeah. Being a Knight gets you respect from everyone who knows what you had to do to reach Knighthood and acknowledges it as a worthy challenge, and maybe some political power within your chapter, but not really anything else as far as the organization as a whole goes. Some people may think that the standards of Knighthood in one realm aren't very high, so they might not show as much respect to those Knights.




An interesting note on the origins of the word "knight," courtesy of my linguistics professor and verified by Webster's New World College Dictionary, 4th Edition: The word originally meant a boy in general, and wasn't a word associated with any particularly high degree of respect. Over time the honor, respect, nobility and devotion we normally think of was attached to the word. The word "wench" underwent a similar process, but its meaning became derogatory instead of honorary. "Wench" simply meant a young woman.
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Orrin None-son

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Fri Feb 06, 2009 10:13 pm

The problem with finding the "original meaning" is depending on the area you are talking about. It also simply meant a fighter on a horse. it meant armor for a horse, it meant an individual hired by a noble to do his dirty work.

The origins can be traced back to many different areas. It was a slang word atributed to several things.
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Tygreive

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:45 am

good point Orrin.
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Constantine

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 12:50 am

My point was that when people today think of knights they think of honor and devotion and the like, when back in the old days that wasn't always associated with the word.
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Orrin None-son

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 5:00 am

No, that was nealry never the case. What "most people think of" is hte fantasy romantasized version. Eldrin is aiming this unit as being somewhere between teh historical and the romantic.
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:24 am

so something like baywatch with armor??? (sry i have no idea how i got that into my head) but its about half and half...


*EDITED* plz don't take offense and i apologize for interrupting your alls descussion, just felt it needed some humor Smile


Last edited by Tyr on Sat Feb 07, 2009 10:00 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : cause i wanted to lulz)
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Tygreive

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:26 am

lol nice
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Orrin None-son

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:16 am

Cha............CLANG............cha............CLANG!

Slow motion running in armor....
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:51 pm

OMG, Orrin i luv you, now if only we can get a photo shoot of the Haven ladies in armor runnin Razz *takes cover* and now i'm goin to get it.
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Constantine

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sun Feb 08, 2009 12:13 am

Wow, this thread got off topic really fast, haha.
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Vala
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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:35 am

Well then get it back on topic. I'm still trying to process everything said in order to say something useful. I'll come back. Promise.

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Tygreive

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sun Feb 08, 2009 3:49 pm

ok, bumping the knight benefits and dropping the name origins....

Now.
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Constantine

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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:18 pm

I've noticed that what we do when we set up ranking requirements is try to make requirements that should take a long time to do. Why don't we just make a set of requirements, but then add time requirements too? Like, you have to be active in Dagorhir for X weeks/months/years before you can try particular requirement, then you have to wait another number of months or years before you can try the next one. We kind of do something like that in Haven. It would ensure that people who really do want to rank stay in Dagorhir. Instead of making requirements that "should take about X years" but might take less time for people with more money or resources, we just say "It will be X years before you can try the next challenge."
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Angus
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PostSubject: Re: Shared Knighthood   Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:14 am

Constantine wrote:
I've noticed that what we do when we set up ranking requirements is try to make requirements that should take a long time to do. Why don't we just make a set of requirements, but then add time requirements too? Like, you have to be active in Dagorhir for X weeks/months/years before you can try particular requirement, then you have to wait another number of months or years before you can try the next one. We kind of do something like that in Haven. It would ensure that people who really do want to rank stay in Dagorhir. Instead of making requirements that "should take about X years" but might take less time for people with more money or resources, we just say "It will be X years before you can try the next challenge."

Because this is a game, it's about having fun. quests and trials and knighthood are about earning respect by challenging yourself. (which is part of what makes it fun) A quest should be a challenge, it should give a person something to work towards. It should not be a waiting game. If the quest is finished after 3 days, and then they just have to wait around for a couple months, then it's not much of a challenge anymore, and it's kind of boring.
Imho, the Order should meet at events only, and should charge individuals with quests then. A good quest should take a dedicated person most of the time between one event and the next to complete. In the event a particular quest is not difficult enough for an individual, it may, at the discretion of the Order, be increased, so as to sufficiently challenge the person. Quest standards may be raised, but not lowered.

tl;dr: Time in dag is one way to measure dedication, but it is not the only way, and certainly not the best.
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