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 Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)

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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:16 pm

Um, I think we should amend our constitution to include provisions for a "GUILDS" section before we start chartering guilds. Otherwise, who's to say there won't be a million tiny guilds pop up that could compete with one another within the realm?

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Kairen

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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:37 pm

I would also like to join, as a weapon smith primarily. I really haven't made any armor yet, but am willing to try.
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Tygreive

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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 3:56 pm

*Haven Constitutional Amendment*

IX Guilds
9.1 A Guild may be formed by Citizens to bring together and advance an aspect of Haven society (i.e Barding, Forgewerks, Clothing, ect.)
9.2 There shall be no more than one(1) guild in charge of each aspect. (i.e two smithy guilds = BAD)
9.3 A guild shall have a minimum of one(1) Guild master and four(4) other guild members.
9.4 A guild charter must be presented to the HAven Government, having been read over and approved, WITH NO DISSENTION ON ANY POINT, by each Guild member and the Guild master.
9.5 Working cost of a Guild shall be remitted unto the members of the Guild, unless permission has been given by the realm leaders for funds DIRECTLY benefitting the Nation itself.
9.6 All policies not named in this constitution shall be under the subject of the Guild charter, and shall be dealt with internally by the guild.
9.6.a Any reports of abuse of power, circumventing the laws of the Guild Charter, or any actions of the like shall be addressed to the Realm leaders who will deal with accusations as fairly and epediently as possible.
9.6.b Should a Guild be found in violation of its Charter, the Realm leaders shall have authority to punish the guild as is fair to the violation. Such punishments are not limited to: Change of the guild charter, suspention of Guild activities, Revoking of the Guild charter and disbandment of the Guild, ect.




Work with it as you may, i just spitballed this idea of an amendment.
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Angus
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 5:48 pm

Iohn de Mar wrote:
who's to say there won't be a million tiny guilds pop up that could compete with one another within the realm?

ME. There won't be. Same reason we won't have every person join this guild. Too much work. It could happen in the future though, so I DO think there should be a provision for guilds within the realm constitution. (Also, are guilds to be responsible for determining vocation ranking rules? I think this would make the most sense) Lots of food for thought, lots of good ideas.
As Kairi mentioned earlier though, lets worry about tasks immediately at hand for now, like getting recognized on campus, getting the symbol put on everything, preparing/registering for war.
Those who aren't working on these things (like Svip) can work on writing guild charters, and constitutional amendments. Once someone has something substantial, we can vote on it as realm.
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 6:57 pm

like i just did?
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Svipdag

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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:24 pm

Yeah, I mean, there isn't (as far as I know) any limit to the number of units that the citizens of alterra can form, and there aren't a million of those, plus if there were a million tiny guilds, I bet they'd evolve and people would leave the less productive or less-representative (read:useless) guilds in lieu of others. Also, multiple guilds might exist that adress local issues, I.E. a guild could be formed in Rolla to try and get Haven to become an RSO. That said, a constitutional amendment seems to me like a good idea to lend legitimacy to the guilds.

Working with Tygrieve's spitball, I propose the following amendment:

IX Guilds
9.1 A Guild may be formed by Citizens to bring together and advance an aspect of Haven society (i.e Barding, Forgewerks, Clothing, ect.)
9.2 A signed (or otherwise approved) guild charter must be presented to the Haven Government, having been notarized by at least five citizens (known as Charter Members)
9.3 Realm leaders shall have the power of Veto over any given guild Charter. The council can ratify a Charter with a majority vote, as can the Realm leaders if their opinion is unanimous.
9.3.a Charter members shall become members of the Guild upon complete verification of the Charter by the Realm Leaders.
9.3.b After a Guild is verified by the realm leaders, it may request the use of realm funds for purposes benefitting the entirety of the realm.
9.4 All policies not named in this constitution shall be under the subject of the Guild charter, and shall be dealt with internally by the guild.
9.4.a Any reports of abuse of power, circumventing the laws of the Guild Charter, or any actions of the like shall be addressed by the Realm leaders and/or Council who will be responsible for investigating/resolving accusations
9.4.b Should a Guild be found in violation of its Charter, the Realm leaders and/or the Council shall have authority to punish the guild as is fair to the violation. Such punishments may include changing of the guild charter or disbandment of the guild if necessary.

Notes on edits:
-I removed 9.2 (no redundant guilds) because I think multiple guilds in one field would promote good guildyness (competition, that way we don't get stuck with one crappy smithing guild for example). I'd like as many people's opinion on this particular point as possible, since I think it'd make Guild Oversight of vocation ranking hard to determine and I'm sure other pplz have other opinions.

-I changed 9.3 and removed 9.4 to combine the idea of both points whilst removing the Guildmaster from the constitution (I think that if a Guild wants to form as purely co-operative, with no central leader, that's their perogative).

-Also I changed point 9.5 to be a part of my point 9.3, I wanted to add a clause stating that it was up to _____ to decide wether funding is given or not, but I don't know if the realm leaders are the only people who should be consulted for that sort of thing so I didn't know who to put in the ______.

-I also reworded 9.4a and b to be shorter ( I think they're shorter, maybe I failed) and also to include the Council as a body with authority over guilds (esp. since the realm leaders might not be there to oversee guild activities in the B.S. province but, ideally, a council member should exist who can do just that.)
and if I changed anything else, I forgot about it right after.


Finally, I'd be glad to draw up a charter for our guild, and as long as none of the members have any objections I'll start right away and I'll try and submit something to all the guild members in a week or so for approval. In the Charter I'll include a process with which we can elect a Guildmaster and once we've agreed and notarized the Charter we'll elect somebody.
In the meantime, anyone who considers themselves a guildmember: Work on smithing! If you haven't yet foamsmithed, start with a PVC/Blue Foam blue sword following Eryndor's flash tutorial ( navigate around this page) http://andrewwelton.com/howto/howto.html If you are more experienced and you live near someone who isn't, help them make a sword. Experiment with counterweighting and alternate techniques.
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:51 pm

Quote :
9.2 A signed (or otherwise approved) guild charter must be presented to the Haven Government, having been notarized by at least five citizens (known as Charter Members)
9.3 Realm leaders shall have the power of Veto over any given guild Charter. The council can ratify a Charter with a majority vote, as can the Realm leaders if their opinion is unanimous.

Since this effects the realm as a whole, the charter would need to be presented before the Conclave, and must be passed with a 3/4 vote. Likewise, a guild charter could only be revoked with a 3/4 vote of the Conclave.

Quote :
9.4.a Any reports of abuse of power, circumventing the laws of the Guild Charter, or any actions of the like shall be addressed by the Realm leaders and/or Council who will be responsible for investigating/resolving accusations
9.4.b Should a Guild be found in violation of its Charter, the Realm leaders and/or the Council shall have authority to punish the guild as is fair to the violation. Such punishments may include changing of the guild charter or disbandment of the guild if necessary.

This would have to be dealt with by the Conclave, unless the issue were a provincial one, in which case it would fall to the Council. Also, there should probably be an item in the article which states that the Conclave will only recognize charters from official provinces (8+ active citizens).

The question remains, however, what are the advantages to competing guilds? If Haven had one Smithing Guild, does it encompass all provinces, or only those provinces which the guild members reside? If it excludes other provinces then there wouldn't need to be a item mentioning "no redundant guilds".

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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Fri Feb 06, 2009 8:16 pm

i put in the no duplicates rule based on the fact that not all of our members are in the same province. we would be one realm wide guild, but it would be up to the individual provinces to train apprentices and work on small projects. regular full meetings of the guilds would be held during summer and winter breaks, where the whole guild could go over policy, co-ordinate a large project, and the like.
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Findaráto Chwiwgwn Oronar

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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sat Feb 07, 2009 1:13 am

So since I am a member of the guild, at least I was told I was accepted, then I would like to say now that I am sorry but working on two political things at once is slightly more than I can handle, therefore I am going to cast my vote towards whatever the majority votes on and focus my attention on the RSO Constitution. Any objections?
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:23 am

thats cool, nothing here is official. focus on the Rolla stuff, then we will worry about the Guild stuff.
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sat Feb 07, 2009 6:38 am

that's kewl, if you see something here you feel strongly about, feel free to say something but until I/we get the charter written and agreed upon there is defenitely going to NOT be any requirements for the guldmembers, just the opportunity to affect the process. So focus on the Rolla stuff, it's probably more important anyway.
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sat Feb 07, 2009 11:49 pm

i propose that maybe there should be one collective guild and maybe each province should have there own division, and each division has its own like sub guildmaster and when he sees over wat goes on in that province and he then brings things to the attention of the rest of the masters, such as things as masterwork things, i suggest also that weapon checkers maybe should be in the guild, and that it be mandatory that guild member should learn the MOA or at least attend a class where everyone were to go over it.. just my peace Razz
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 4:12 am

I have not made a weapon yet, (other than an Amtguard club) but I am making a shield. I have de-moldified it and cut of the corners with a sabre saw (Dang those things are hard to hold steady while holding the board and having it vibrate most of your body since I am not that big) It is a square-ish saw like Odin's, but I think it may be a little smaller... 48x24 not including any foaming, I have some dap, but I really have no idea what I am doing. Left to do, step wise, is sand it down a little, then dap it, then waffle on foam on front, then foam the edges, then foam the hand guard, then tee nut in some taekwondo belts for straps and make a cover. If I forgot a step let me know.
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 9:11 am

call me crazy, but shouldn't you foam the face after you attach the straps?
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hyper



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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 2:07 pm

SolinuSvipdag wrote:
call me crazy, but shouldn't you foam the face after you attach the straps?
you are crazy, but thanks for the advice... never made a shield before so I don't know much of the chronological order. all advice is helpful =D
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 5:29 pm

hyper wrote:
SolinuSvipdag wrote:
call me crazy, but shouldn't you foam the face after you attach the straps?
you are crazy, but thanks for the advice... never made a shield before so I don't know much of the chronological order. all advice is helpful =D

u deffinatly want to put in your tee-nuts before any foaming. i added the tee-nuts on my shield first, then attacked the straps so i knew i had them right, then i started foaming. i also added two more tee-nuts for a strap so i can strap it to my back
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 6:18 pm

1) strap it
2) foam it
3) cover it

*to the tune of daft punk*

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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:27 pm

Iohn de Mar wrote:
1) strap it
2) foam it
3) cover it

*to the tune of daft punk*

"strap it tightly, foam it even, cover smoothly, makes it stronger, more than ever a sheilder's work is never over"
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 7:51 pm

nice!!
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PostSubject: Re: Smith's Guild (reposted from the vocations discussion)   Sun Feb 08, 2009 8:02 pm

I see another song parody in the making.

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