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 What I've got so far:

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Svipdag

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PostSubject: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:09 am

(This is copied from the Woohoo thread)

So far the outline of the charter is gonna be split up into sections, section 1: Statement of Purpose
2: Membership and voting (details on how to become a member, also the fact that members can vote and also run for Realmwide or Local Guildmaster)
3: Responsibilities
3a. Realmwide Guildmaster (RG):Serves as leader of the guild. His word is Guild law unless said word is disputed by a polled majority of guild members. Any guild member may initiate such a poll. RwGM must issue decrees (if anyone has a better name for these, let me know), must never leave a request for smithing advice unanswered (either by personally researching and answering the question or directing the asker to the proper resource), must complete the minor quest for each decree issued (read below). The RGM may NOT serve as a CGL also.
3a.1 describes decrees. Each should apply to the entire realm and should benefit either each member or the entire Realm. Each would include a long-term goal, for example educating each member of the realm in the regulations put forth in the MoA, producing X number of weapons, shields, and armor pieces for the Armory, ensuring each member has experience making a passable version of every type of weapon. Also each decree would include a minor quest (better name also sought here), or a minimum amount of commitment a member must put forth. Each quest should be around 2-3 days (not full days) work and be completable at a cost of around 30$ or less. A minor quest should be designed around a 3-month timetable. A major quest may also be included for the Chapter Guild leaders, which may not include a necessary monetary commitment.
(My ideas for the decrees so far are: Building the Armory, Spreading the good word of the MoA, and Solidifying the Skill of the Shmiedennarren)
3.b. Chapter Guild leaders
presides over guild activities in a single chapter, oversees and aids in the completion of each minor quest by the members active in their chapter. Must not leave a request for smithing advice unanswered or unreferred (see RGM description)
Must complete every major quest set forth by the RGM. (Major quests would mostly involve verifying or otherwise supporting minor quests, for example if a RG decreed that, for a minor quest, a member could/should build a passable Red/green weapon, a probable major quest would be for the Chapter Guild Leader to test or oversee the testing of each weapon produced and either report or verify that that member had completed the quest).
must complete a single minor quest every three months, unless either a major quest description states that it precludes the CGL from any further duties, or if the CGL either succesfully appeals to the RGM or to the majority of the guilmembers in the CGL's chapter.
A CGL may issue local decrees to their chapter, providing that these decrees meet all criterion for realmwide decrees. They must not contradict, supercede, or otherwise conflict with RGM decrees OR, if they do, the decree must be issued either with permission from the RGM or with the blessing (in the form of a poll) of a majority of the guildmembers in the CGL's chapter. They should address local issues and benefit either the chapter in which they are issued or each guildmember therein. The CGL must complete any minor quests contained in these decrees. The RGM is not responsible for completing these quests.
A CGL may also appoint members to positions comparable to aides, scribes, treasurers, etc as they see fit. Notification of an appointment must be sent to each member of the guild (post it on the forums)
3.c. Members
responsible for embodying the goals of the Schmiedennarren in their daily activities, helping nonmembers with smithing when possible, striving to improve their knowledge and abilities in whatever field(s) of smithing they pursue.
A guildmember must complete one minor quest every 3 months, unless they successfully appeal to both their CGL and the RGM or to either 2/3 of all guildmembers in their chapter or a majority of all guildmembers. A Guildmember is responsible for removing an RGM or CGL from his/her position (initiating impeachment procedures) if the aforementioned representative violates the guild constitution, abuses their power, or shirks their responsibilities as a representative. A Guildmember has the power to vote in every election of a guild authority (RGM or CGL). A guildmember may wear the insignia of the Shmiedennarren (lol we should get one, I tihnk).
3.c.1. The RGM and CGL are also guildmembers for all purposes outside of the quest requirement.

Notes:

I had the idea of establishing a ranking system based on either the number of minor quests completed or the number of above-and-beyond quests completed (2 in 3 months would count as one, 3 in 3 months would be 2, etc, etc).

I still need to flesh out the election system, does anyone have preferences on that? Also, I have some pretty specific ideas about the campaigning for RGM, I think the RGM should write up and disclose the exact decrees (s)he'll make at the beginning of a 3-month term, that way the members know exactly what they're voting for. The RGM could make further decrees later, but since only one quest is required of the members per 3-month term, they could just opt out of those.
Also Anyone should be able to write up a decree and send it to the RGM or the CGL for possible issuance, as the more decrees ("decree" Read:quest trees) that are issued, the more possibilities for a member to meet their responsibilities for a given 3-month term. But the RGM or CGL, since they have to complete every minor quest they issue in a decree, should have the final say in what gets issued and what doesn't. Of course, the members could always impeach the RGM or CGL, although I don't have an idea for that process codified yet.
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 8:36 am

i'm sry man, i luv ya to death and your like a brother to me, but i think this is becoming a little to political for me, also it seems to be trying to obtain a ranking system simular to the knighthood one, only instead of combat prowess it is more on the smithing. i had a different idea of how this would go but that is my own opinions. i'm sry bout this and hope i haven't hurt anyones feelings.

I must respectfully withdraw myself from the guild. Thank You and have a nice day.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 5:42 pm

seriously? I mean, this isn't even close to guild law. The whole point of me posting this here was so people could have an opportunity to criticize it and post what they, as members, want to see changed or added. If you're gonna quit because you don't like this charter as it is right now, just mention what you don't like. I wasn't going to propose it for us to vote/agree on until either everyone or almost everyone looked at it and and said, "OK". Especially since the ranking system is A: voluntary and B: as of now nonexistant. Would you prefer no ranking/commendation at all? And what is too political about it? The RGM/ CGL thing, people getting elected? Anyway, my point is none of this is set in stone,and we can change this to tailor it to suit your ideas of what the guild should be. That was my original intent.
But if you want to leave, I won't get upset or offended, I mean, I never imagined the Guild would encompass everyone. I just think now is kind of a strange time to quit. But I respect your decision, and you should know that you are welcome back at any time.
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:07 pm

i don't like it cause i believe the guild should be there as a way for people to just help eachother out, i don't think there should be a require ment that they MUST make an item every so often, i think maybe an intiation of sorts MAYBE, and as for the officals and decrees i really don't like, i'm sry, i just don't like politics. Having one person in charge over everyone just doesn't appeal to me, maybe a head guy who people can turn to for advice is okay, we can elect him in to office. and the lower guys can be elected to office as well. i think the postions shouldn't really hold power exept as weapons checkers and to give advice and help the people in there province/realm, you get wat i'm saying, i just see that there is a lot of unneeded politics here as it's being stated,( to be brutally honest, i'm not sure exactly why it needs a charter. i see this more as a group of vocationalist pulling together to help one another not start a unit or province)
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:23 pm

the point of the rules is so that we can have a ranking system, really. Anyone can join the guild, anyone can remain in the guild. If you want to become a journeyman or master foamsmith, armorsmith, etc. The guild is the group that decides what you have to do to earn that title, and eventually bestows that title upon you. The point is to set standards, and to function as a group so that through our combined effort, we can accomplish more than if we each function alone. Most projects can be done alone, but some things (like chainmail and large sets of armor) are easier when a lot of people help out.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 7:32 pm

@ svip: the decrees and quests are a good idea, but should be requirements for ranking purposes only. Also, they should be standard across the board, and remain in place permanently, to be altered only with the approval of the guild members.

It should be clear that all ranking and other activities are optional. set some standard requirements for becoming an apprentice, that way only apprentice and higher guild members can vote on important matters, but membership is still open to everyone.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Tue Feb 10, 2009 11:50 pm

I also believe that most things in the guild should be optional, quests as a smith just doesn't sound right. I believe the ranking system should be a passive one. Sure we can help each other out and we all should strive to be as good as we can, but I think that should just come naturally, and we all have our preferences to what we make and how we make it. I believe a guild is something that supports each individual member and is made to help them all become better at there chosen art form.
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 3:24 am

I like the idea of a guild, but I'm gonna have to echo Tyr on this one. It all seems a bit too complicated for a guild like this. I don't think it needs to be like this. I think it should only be about paragraph-length charter outlining what it does and how it works. The ideas of quests and a realmwide guildmaster are interesting ones, but I can't help feel that we are working harder on this than we need to. We only have a half dozen members as it is...I'm just not sure why we need quests and complicated membership requirements, ect.

For now, it would make sense to me if we had only a few articles, giving us something to at least start working with: Membership, rank, purpose. I really don't see why we'd need anything else at this time.

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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:55 am

I see the guild as not only a body to regulate ranking and a tool to support co-operation between guildmembers, but also a resource for setting, achieving and recognizing personal and realmwide smithing goals. What do you guys see it as, because I'm getting a few different things.

Angus and Tyr seem to agree ( and I'd bet that everyone does) that the guild should exist to facilitate cooperation between guildmembers.

I think the decree/quest system would help us achieve chapterwide or realmwide goals by offering a modest reward and recommendation to members who work towards achieving those goals. I imagined membership as a reward for this, but it seems that the majority is opposed to this concept. If you are in favor, please say something before we try and get a set of rules ratified, otherwise in any and all further drafts for the charter that I come up with (and anyone else is free to draft a charter) won't include this aspect.


Angus, you mentioned that the guild should also be responsible for setting standards for earning ranks in vocations, such as journeyman or master weapon or armorsmith.

I didn't include anything in the draft that I posted here because when (I think it was Kairen who asked) it was requested that I post the progress I had made, I hadn't thought of any good way of determining these. I had figured that rank in the guild would be determined by the number and type of "quests" completed, and that the standards would be voted on by members of a certain rank. EX: We could have a 'decree' that was something like "Armor thyselves" and a requirement would be to produce a piece of armor such as a bracer, a greave, a pauldron, a helmet, etc, etc whose completion was necessary for obtaining the rank of Journeyman armorsmiths, who as part of their rank could vote on wether a certain piece of armor is "exceptional" for the purpose of awarding a smith the rank of "master" smith.

I had imagined it to be something like a Unit but a unit that crafted together, not one that fought together. Apparently this idea is unpopular. Anyway, Iohn mentioned "a guild like this" and before I spend more time drafting a charter, I'd like more of the members' input on exactly what kind of guild they think this is, or should be.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 5:00 pm

I believe this to be a guild for the betterment of Haven's Armoury. we who are in this guild work together to supply Haven with spare weaponry and armour, not only for new people who may join The Game, but to keep our members going if they suffer an equipment failure. if one of us comes up with an efficient way to create a weapon, they share their knowledge of what supplies to use, and how to go about making the weapon.

if we wish for ranks in the guild, let the novice be able to craft a single passing blue. let the apprentice be able to craft consistantly passing blues plus one weapon of another color/type. let the journeyman be able to consistantly creat passing weapons of two colors/types, and be able to quickly and effectively repair weaponry. let the veteran consistantly pass three colors/types of weapons, be able to repair weaponry And armour in an efficient and speedy manner, and be able to create one type of passable armor(shield, armor that protects both arms or legs or the body or the head). Let the Master fufill all previous requirements, but be able to create any type of armor, and must complete one full set for consideration by the guild OR create every color and type of weapon, with several style variations on the blues and reds(shortsword, mace, beatstick for blues. longsword, glaives, ect for reds).

Better?
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 6:37 pm

I for one, like just about everything that was included in the charter draft except for the quests. Creating weapons and armor, is really only on a need-basis. If someone needs something, it can be made. Cranking out weapons and armor constantly is what a business does, and I don't think we'd be selling our gear. I support that there needs to be clear cut requirements for ranking in the guild (or any guild for that matter), but requiring someone to build x weapon every y weeks, and go on z number of quests, ect seems a bit much. If we feel that we still need quests and time-dependent prerequisites to keep rank than we should certainly amend the charter. But as it stands, we have only a few members. Do we really need to make this more complicated than it needs to be?

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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:27 pm

On the note of constantly pumping out weapons, there may come a time when your local Province's size reaches a relative maximum [for example, the most we every had in Blue Springs was less than 20 people, if I remember. I can't remember any exact numbers]. So if a bunch of people are making a bunch of weapons, you'll have an enormous excess of weapons. That might not be a bad thing if they were all different kinds, but if you have a ton of blues and not as many fighters, then it becomes unnecessary.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 7:50 pm

FOr ex. i currently have 6 blues, 2 reds, 2 shields, 1 green, i meen really don't need it all to myself, sure i like variety but besides for different types of weapons i'm not really needing anymore shortswords or beatsticks. i don't mind making weapons but i think it should be about maintaining current weapons and forging lasting ones that we should be focusing on, there shouldn't be the need to mass produce weapons unless a HUGE increase in peopl happen.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 8:31 pm

@ Iohn: Would you be able to live with a version that included quests (or Marks, or some form of achievement) that were strictly non-mandatory? I'm hoping to use the system to help people organize large projects more easily and earn some recognition at the same time. Also, the quests wouldn't just be about making weapons. My original idea for the guild included making weapons and armor and shields, but also educating members and non-members in the rules of the MoA and in weapons making and maintenance, so if I was guildmaster I'd make it so quests were available that included crafting a passable piece, or helping someone else craft a passable piece, or passing the MoA test (a worksheet I'm working on that replaces all the numbers in the MoA with blanks), or administering the MoA test to a non-member. Plus we could word the quests to meet a certain crafting quota, so that there were, say, 12 quests available for the under-armed BS province, 3x2 blues apiece, 3x 1 shield, 2 red swords, a glaive, and 3 8' spears. We could alter these numbers based on what loaner weapons are available in a given region, with the goal of having a wider variety of loaner weapons. then we wouldn't have to worry about what constantine brought up, of having a bunch of loaner blues which are boring and not very useful.

Ooo Ooo I have an idea... Forget the name Quest. it's gone now. They're now... challenges! any member could post a challenge that they've already completed or just that they would like to see done, ex: ______ challenges each Schmiedennarr with crafting a passable Blue weapon 2.5' or more in lenght that weighs no more than 13 oz. Any member can take up a challenge, as can any non-member. There'll be specific challenges for each rank of weaponsmith and armorsmith, taking care of our ranking regulation dewties. There will be separate standing challenges to all the guildmembers (which are, of course, optional) and the Realm Guildmaster and Chapter Guildmaster will author challenges to the realm as a whole and/or to their chapter. The realm GM might challenge each chapter to have m/2 shields at practice, loaner or non, with "m" being the number of persons fighting and/or in regular attendance. The Chapter GM might challenge the smiths in his/her chapter to build and donate a repertoire of weapons like I mentioned earlier. But the Challenges would be a side-attraction,a fun thing for members to do to help get us motivated to smith and craft etc etc. and would have no bearing on rank or membership status except in certain specific cases (journeyman/master smith - specific challenges). Challenges could come with rewards, or not. w/e.
then the Realm GM would be responsible for organizing and keeping track of standing challenges, as would the chapter GMs. The Realm and Chapter GM's could designate challenges as being "worthy" or something, or maybe that could be determined by vote. And a guildmember could wear a smith's belt flag with red marks for "worthy" weapon challenges, green for education challenges, and black for armor challenges.
Members could participate in challenges or come up with challenges, but wether or not they do wouldn't change wether they are a member or not. Or we could have entrance challenges for Apprentices, and once those are done, you're a member til you quit. This'd probably be 2 challenges: something like "make a passable weapon, armor piece, or shield" and "Pass a competence test involving the MoA", and these could be retroactivelly applied, so all a prospective member would need to do would be either make a weapon, armor piece, or shield or point out the fact that they already have, plus based on wether they made a shield, armor piece, or weapon they could answer a short quiz on that section of the MoA and voila! lifetime membership.

Would that be acceptable to you guys as a part of the charter? It wouldn't have much of anything to do with the guild rules so much as with the guild's statement of purpose.
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:10 pm

the idea of challenges still in my opinion makes it more complicated then it should but oh well, as for the make a weapon and pass test i'll go with, since i have to frequently point out rules that people seem to forget lol..
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PostSubject: Re: What I've got so far:   Thu Feb 12, 2009 1:07 am

Alright Svip. Revise the charter, the Conclave will review it. Lets just get this on the table so we can work with it. I still feel that quests is too much, but go ahead and do it anyway, lets see how well it works. As for an MOA test, you are awesome. I've always wanted to do something like this but never had the time to sit down and do it. I agree that there needs to be requirements for ranking in a guild, and although what you're proposing sounds superfluous, maybe it'll work out okay.

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