Census - population inforomation requested.

I just want to get an idea of where Haven stands. I'd appreciate it if people in each province/area would answer these questions as accurately as they can with respect to their area. The answers don't have to come from any one person. If anybody has an idea of what the accurate answer is for his/her area, feel free to post.

What is the average number of people at each realm function? How many of them are Haven citizens?

Truman - 8-10, one Haven citizen.
Rolla - 10-15, all or mostly citizens.
Blue Springs - ?

How many people in each area attend 1/3 realm functions? How many of them are Haven citizens?

Truman - 7 plus/minus 1, 1 Haven citizen
Rolla - 17 all or mostly Haven citizens
Blue Springs - ?

How many people are rarely able to attend realm functions? How many of them were considered or are currently considered Haven citizens?

Truman - unknown
Rolla - 11 [class conflicts], all or mostly citizens
Blue Springs - ?

How does each area define a realm function?

Truman - Any gathering involving combat practice, weapons-making, or general discussion of boffer fighting, currently not Dag specific. Dagorhir specificity may change based on interest.
Rolla - A practice, a feast, foamsmithing/shieldpainting, a get-together of any intent specifically Dag.
Blue Springs - ?


Based on the information used to answer the questions above:

How many provinces are there?
At least 1, maybe 2.

How many Councilors are there?
2 [Kairi and Tygreive]

How many people are on the Conclave?
3 [Kairi, Tygreive, Iohn]

How many legal citizens does Haven currently have? [People who attend 1/3 of realm functions as defined by each province, have a realm standard tabard/belt flag, have paid dues, have chosen a vocation, and have sworn fealty]

11 [Rolla] + ? [Blue Springs] + 1 [Truman] + 1 [Oklahoma] = ? [At least 13, mainly due to garb restrictions]


I\'d also like to point out an ambiguity in the Constitution:

Haven Constitution wrote:

3.1.1. A citizen must make an active effort to participate in realm functions, events, and activities. To be considered active, one must attend at least ⅓ of realm functions as defined by each province.

If a "province" decides what a realm function is and that factors into citizenship status, then there has to be a province before there can be citizens. But there have to be 8 active citizens before an area becomes a province. How does this work for people in my situation, where I'm the only current citizen in the area? Perhaps people in a new area can have some sort of sub-citizen status in order to define realm functions until they have 8 active members. In any case, it seems like i would be helpful to clear this up.

To answer my own questions [assuming I still have citizenship status, even though according to our Constitution I technically shouldn't. If I don't, then there are no Haven citizens at Truman, as far as I'm aware]:

The average number of people at each function would probably be around 8 or 9, I'd say. Crux can correct me if I'm wrong because he attends more than I do.

I'd say there are at least 4 people, probably more, who attend 1/3 of the functions.

Until recently, I was rarely able to attend functions. I can't speak for anyone else in the area, and there aren't many Truman students on the forum.

I would define a realm function as any activity directly pertaining to boffer fighting, not necessarily specific to Dagorhir. This may change based on the shift from Amtgard to Dagorhir/Belegarth though.

Based on this information, we don't count as a province of Haven and therefore have no Councilor.

I'd say that average is about correct. As far as people who regularly attend, I'm counting you, myself, EB, Seth, Hobbit, Colin, and Nathaniel. Also, not sure how many people here would want to create an official Haven chapter (nothing against anyone on these boards) but we've typically taken an unofficial stance that we don't have any official affiliations as a whole. that being said, if some people wanted to start a side group of haven that would work, and we'd just hold our "functions" together.

Um... basically, I have a record of everyone who is or has recently been an active member of Haven. Due to a lack of Province reports being submitted, the accuracy of that record is debatable (meaning I haven't received any from anyone in several months, so...). That should get fixed very shortly since Tygreive is helping out, but for now, basically the only records I can give are Haven ones.
I'd also be more than happy to give those to you and fill this out as accurately as I can, but I'm super busy at the moment, so I'll probably actually get around to it tomorrow. @.x;

Norman's got one citizen, teh me. Unless I'm not a citizen anymore cuz I don't attend Haven events...

So, that leaves Blue Springs and Rolla with the only chances of being Provinces. And I don't know if BS has enough active citizens for it either. There's Turrin, Ephriam, Tygrieve, Raynne, and maybe a few others. I'm sure Tyr gets out there and fights, but I think he's a mercenary. As far as I'm aware, Vala and Elysia are rarely able to attend. I have no idea how often Anndra and Koltin fight. If Blue Springs doesn't have 8 people who qualify as active citizens, then they're not even a province, which might be why you aren't getting province reports :[ I asked these questions so we would know these things, because I for one am very curious to see who we consider citizens and who actually qualifies as citizens.

Constantine wrote:

If Blue Springs doesn't have 8 people who qualify as active citizens, then they're not even a province, which might be why you aren't getting province reports

Back when I should have been receiving them, they definitely had 8 people. I think it was more a case of someone just not doing their job.

The only two Provinces are, for certain, Rolla and (possibly) Blue Springs. However, I'm hoping I can at least get a scribe wherever our citizens are located to send me attendance records once a month at least, that way I can make sure people are being counted as active. Just because you or Svipdag can't make it to Rolla or Blue Springs doesn't mean you're not active members of the realm; I just have to know that you are still attending Dag practices, that you are still getting on the forums (which I can see for myself), that you are still representing Haven and not another realm, etc. Basically, that you're still making an effort. I don't think it would be fair of us to say, "No, you can't be a citizen," even though you're an active dedicated member of Dag and just happen to be where seeing other Haven members frequently is difficult.

That right there endears me to this group of people even more Kairi. After gates I may want to join Haven myself.

i agree. isolation is no excuse for non-citizenship.

@kairi: I'm still working on those lists, its taking me longer than expected to get the forms drawn up. And i'm collecting dues as i type.

To start a province, there needs only be 8 people who are willing to become citizens of the realm. It wouldn't make sense for a province to require 8 "already" citizens. Then there would never be any new provinces.

Blue Springs and Rolla are, as of now, the only provinces I know of who are eligible for representation on the Conclave. From the sounds of it, the Truman area has at least 8 people. If those ~8 people are thinking of becoming a Dagorhir-Haven province I don't know. I suppose we could also consider the Edmond Oklahoma area as an outpost more than a province.

Kairi and Iohn have cleared up some uncertainties I've had about citizenship, but I might suggest revising the part of the Constitution that says

9.2. A province must have a minimum of eight active citizens to be recognized as a province, and must elect a Councilor.

because it kind of directly contradicts Iohn's statement. Perhaps the phrase "active citizens" should be revised to something along the lines of "potential" or "prospective" citizens.

And I guess I'll just take on the Scholar vocation and start keeping records of people who fight here. It would be great if Crux and others in the Truman area would like to help, in case I can't make it to practices. For the time being, we'd just need to count how many people show up. If people start becoming citizens we'll have to start keeping track of ranks, marks, vocations, etc.

@Tygreive: No worries. As long as we can get a record by the end of the month, I'll be a happy werewolf.

Alright, now I'm going to fill out the actual census part of the question to the best of my knowledge.

"What is the average number of people at each realm function? How many of them are Haven citizens?"
I'm going to define 'realm function' as being a practice, a feast, foamsmithing/shieldpainting, a get-together of any intent specifically Dag basically. On average, we have about 10-15 people at a practice; of those, either everyone is a citizen, or possibly one or two people aren't. At a feast or a smithing day, generally everyone is a citizen unless we're hosting a foamsmithing seminar (which we've only ever done two of).

"How many people in each area attend 1/3 realm functions? How many of them are Haven citizens?"
As far as 1/3 realm attendance goes, we have 17 'active' members out of 28. Almost everyone was active last semester, but with the new class schedules we all got, some people barely ever have time. :\

"How many people are rarely able to attend realm functions? How many of them were considered or are currently considered Haven citizens?"
We have 11 members who are rarely able to attend (once a month or so). A couple are just lazy, but most are too busy due to classes. Most all of them were active citizens prior to this semester.

"How does each area define a realm function?"
Oh, haha. See my answer to the first question.


Based on the information used to answer the questions above:

"How many provinces are there?"
One for sure, possibly two.

"How many Councilors are there?"
Two. Myself and Tygreive, and we both just took office. Madea was the only one previously.

"How many people are on the Conclave?"
Three. The two Councilors, plus Iohn, who has a permanent vote that is equal to that of any other person on the Conclave.

"How many legal citizens does Haven have? [People who attend 1/3 of realm functions as defined by each province, have a realm standard tabard/belt flag, have paid dues, have chosen a vocation, and have sworn fealty]"
Again, speaking only for the Rolla Province, we have 11. The only thing holding back the rest is the getting garb part, which we're all working on since a majority intend to go to Gates, so that number is increasing slowly but surely at the moment.


Did that answer everything enough, or is there something else you'd like to know that I can possibly help answer? (:

That pretty much covered the questions for Rolla. Thanks :] You guys basically have a lot of people who want to fight, but only about half of them have schedules lenient enough for them to make it. I suppose for the rocky period of time during college we'll be pretty lenient with the "must attend 1/3 of realm functions" rule, because availability will change each semester.

yeah we are pretty much all SUPER busy here, jobs+school=suck

I forgot to include the Hannibal area. But I've never heard of anything really going on there. Alasdair made a post stating practice times, but nobody ever got on the forums and said they were from that area, so I don't know what's going on. If I'm correct, he's in the military now.