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Svipdag

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PostSubject: Ranking ideas   Wed Feb 18, 2009 8:23 am

Please post ideas of what you think each rank (novice, apprentice, journeyman, master) of guildmember should do, should be expected to be able to do, or even what they should be like in order to attain said rank.
We'll use this as a springboard for ranking challenges and perhaps for altering the charter if we see fit.

My opinion:

I think a novice should show interest in smithing (like it is now).

apprentice should show application of interest in smithing, at least by crafting a piece or two and by displaying familiarity with the MoA (wether by my test, soon to be tests or by other means, idc). They should also earn their title by looking up and attempting to follow a weapon tutorial, wether they produce a passable piece or not being less important than the fact that they will be familiar with a resource for ideas for designs. So I'm seeing 2 challenges here, Craft x pieces and Follow a tutorial to the best of your ability and post a report.

Journeyman should display unwavering interest in the field, as well as experience in smithing. They should show the ability to follow tutorials and experience in dealing with tutorials by crafting at least one piece based entirely off of someone else's design. Also they should be challenged to craft particularly difficult pieces (I know for weapons I'd consider a Red sword with a durable [lasts more than 12 practices and one large day-long or longer event of constant use] stabbing tip) and succeed. They should know their section of the MoA like the back of their hand and should show experience in using high-quality materials and/or in crafting durable, useful pieces (weapons lasting a year or so, Weapons made of more than just camp foam, couch foam, PVC and duct tape). Their pieces should display patience, planning, and skill in construction. I'm imagining Iohn doodling diagrams for weapons in Physics class. They should also display a willingness to help out others in crafting endeavors by teaching a novice or apprentice, or by teaching in some other aspect (It might not even be smithing-related, they could tutor elementary school kids. The point is that they can display patience and willingness to work with people less experienced than they).

Masters... I don't know.


Last edited by SolinuSvipdag on Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:04 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Wed Feb 18, 2009 1:42 pm

long post is LONG, also the way it is i will never become a j-man EVER, and sam wat do you mean by other than those materials, i mean 90% of all dag weapons are made of that, that and fiberglass, also would my cleaver count for the difficult peice i mean it survived war without needing any repairs and has lasted since, lol, and i don't really like to use someone elses tutorials lol
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Svipdag

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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Wed Feb 18, 2009 7:03 pm

For the high-quality materials and durable weapons thing: Specifically for weaponsmiths I was thinking EVAlite, Unifoam, Fiberglass or Kitespar cores, materials like that. But if someone can make durable and long-lasting weapons out of just PVC, Blue Foam and Couch foam, that'd be fine too.

And for "particularly difficult pieces", no, your cleaver would, in my opinion, not count. It's a single-bladed red. The example I mentioned (which wouldn't be the only one) would be a single- or double-bladed red/green sword, whose tips are a pain in the *** to make. Also passable arrows are, I've heard, hard to make. Also axes that you can shield-hook with without hurting the blade. Things that people try to make and fail at.

Quote :
also the way it is i will never become a j-man EVER
What's your point? That sounds antagonizing, I know, but really. Do you consider yourself a Journeyman weaponsmith? If you think you are a journeyman, or that you should be able to attain Journeyman quickly, why? In other words, what do you think a Journeyman is? This is honest curiosity, I'm trying to find a unified definition of each of the ranks.


And sorry about the long post. All my posts are long.
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Angus
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:12 am

Masters should be familiar with all of the best techniques for each kind of weapon, and should be actively developing new and better techniques for foamsmithing.

it goes like this:
novice reads the book, apprentice puts knowledge into practice, journeyman teaches the class, master writes the book.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 12:24 am

i like it Angus, in that set up i'll never master, i hate writing lol, and i think i'll try to make a flail usuing fiberglass, if it last THAT will be my difficult piece..lol
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 1:23 am

hmm, fiberglass flail...
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:24 am

hey it shall be extremely hard to make and make it to last...
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:45 am

I don't know how hard it would be, I mean, there's a design for a flail that's basically a shaped tube of cloth that covers the head and the handle. Maybe it would be hard, but I know how I'd try to make one if I was gonna make one.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:52 am

thats because there is no way right now on making a flail using fiberglass, there are some for pvc since to make a chain you go the tube, so to make it on a fiberglass i will have to create my own way to do it, that and i'm usin fiberglass and other materials Razz.. and the way i want to make it it wouldn't be wat your talkin bout it would be an actually chain flail not a bag on stick.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:23 am

sure, it'd be different, but the point is to make it better. In what way is a fiberglass flail going to be an improvement on a standard PVC flail? You're thinking about this the wrong way, my friend. I'm not saying you should be required to invent something new in order to become a master. I'm saying that once you become a master, you should already be familiar with the best methods for each type of weapon. And if you already know the best way to do something, the only new knowledge you can gain is in discovering and inventing new ways to improve upon the current best methods. To become a master, you should be able to show knowledge and practice of all of the most widely accepted and best foamsmithing techniques, in a wide variety of weapon types.

Building a fiberglass flail is neither here nor there. If it were a significant improvement on the flail design(s) that are currently used, then it would be something, but I don't see that it is, or that it is in any way relevant to this topic.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 8:35 am

it's relevant in the way he stated the use of other materials, fiberglass being one of those, and actually i would be following a tutorial for flails only making adjustments to make it work for a fiberglass rod, also it should be a point to try new a differnt things, for one a fiberglass flail will be lighter and a lot quicker, it also wont be as bulky as current ones, to find improvment you must experiment. We don't yet know the dis/advantages of it cause tto my knowledge there really aren't any fiberglass flails out there or if they are they are rare. they migh tbe more durable then pvc. i mean just cause it's new doesn't mean you should dog on it yet, adn this really wasn't for the master part it was more for the j-man... and sometimes you have to be different' before you can make the best. you have to find it first. takes scyth. you really can't make the best cause they aren't really out. you have to invent a good way to do it first to improve apon it.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:22 pm

hmmm idk about this... i for one have never really followed tutorials, i mean they are great for getting ideas and such but i already have too many weapons, lol and i don't want to be made to make more just for a rank. also why not change it to a certain number of weapons. lets say to be a j-man you need to make x number of sturdy, functonal, and good looking weapons

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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 4:02 pm

Novice: Be intimately familiar with the weapon construction rules in the most current MOA, construct a passable weapon of any kind and have it approved by a guild officer.
Apprentice: Be able to equip one's self with a basic modicum of Dagorhir-legal weaponry. 1) weapon set of choice, 2) shield and weapon. Know how to construct a safe blue, red, green, and white weapon. Know how to construct safe shields.
Journeyman: Learn how to construct safe and durable weapons of more than one kind. The journeyman should grow to find a niche within the foamsmithing community and begin to pursue it (ie. archery, sword&board, spear, ect).
Master: A master should be familiar with all aspects of advanced foamsmithing, but not necessarily know all techniques. A master foamsmith should at the very least know how and be able to construct a weapon from a chosen weapon category and implement the most advanced techniques and materials in the construction. It is the master's responsibility to share this knowledge of advanced foamsmithing with others and actively pursue better designs and materials to benefit the Dagorhir community.

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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 5:35 pm

nice. i like that.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 6:20 pm

Iohn de Mar wrote:
Novice: Be intimately familiar with the weapon construction rules in the most current MOA, construct a passable weapon of any kind and have it approved by a guild officer.
Apprentice: Be able to equip one's self with a basic modicum of Dagorhir-legal weaponry. 1) weapon set of choice, 2) shield and weapon. Know how to construct a safe blue, red, green, and white weapon. Know how to construct safe shields.
Journeyman: Learn how to construct safe and durable weapons of more than one kind. The journeyman should grow to find a niche within the foamsmithing community and begin to pursue it (ie. archery, sword&board, spear, ect).
Master: A master should be familiar with all aspects of advanced foamsmithing, but not necessarily know all techniques. A master foamsmith should at the very least know how and be able to construct a weapon from a chosen weapon category and implement the most advanced techniques and materials in the construction. It is the master's responsibility to share this knowledge of advanced foamsmithing with others and actively pursue better designs and materials to benefit the Dagorhir community.

Bam. excellently put, Iohn.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Thu Feb 19, 2009 7:06 pm

good, good *strokes beard*
What about Armorsmith ranking, and what about education/helping newbies? Should J-man or Apprentice candidates have some requirement as to helping someone learn how to smith? It's mentioned under master, but not anywhere before.

This looks like a popular and very workable foamsmith ranking defenition.
Quote :
Know how to construct a safe blue, red, green, and white weapon. Know how to construct safe shields.
Should an apprentice be required to make a passable one of each of these, or just know the sections on the MoA applicable? If it's # 2, to me that seems redundant, since the Novice should be "intimately familiar" with the MoA.

Also, should we have another rank? Right now, I thought a novice was someone who was interested in smithing but there were no (absolutely no) requirements for becoming one. Maybe Novice/apprentice/journeyman/craftsman/master craftsman (Craftsman being replaced with Foamsmith or Armorsmith, depending on which). Then it would go thusly, with each rank being attained upon completion or display of the qualities shown after it:

Novice: Display interest in Weaponsmithing
Apprentice: Be intimately familiar with the weapon construction rules in the most current MOA, construct a passable weapon of any kind and have it approved by a guild officer.
Journeyman: Be able to equip one's self with a basic modicum of Dagorhir-legal weaponry. 1) weapon set of choice, 2) shield and weapon. Know how to construct a safe blue, red, green, and white weapon. Know how to construct safe shields.
Weaponsmith: Learn how to construct safe and durable weapons of more than one kind. The weaponsmith should grow to find a niche within the foamsmithing community and begin to pursue it (ie. archery, sword&board, spear, ect).
Master Weaponsmith: A master should be familiar with all aspects of advanced foamsmithing, but not necessarily know all techniques. A master foamsmith should at the very least know how and be able to construct a weapon from a chosen weapon category and implement the most advanced techniques and materials in the construction. It is the master's responsibility to share this knowledge of advanced foamsmithing with others and actively pursue better designs and materials to benefit the Dagorhir community.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:13 am

hmm, I looked it up and Journeyman basically means professional, so maybe the same thing as in my last post but
Novice
Apprentice
Weaponsmith
Journeyman Weaponsmith
Master Weaponsmith
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Fri Feb 20, 2009 6:59 am

Do we really want the definition of a Novice to be anyone who is interested in the guild? In Dagorhir combat we don't let just anyone who's interested fight on the field. There is a process which they must go through (ie. waiver, parental consent) before they are allowed to participate. I think if someone is simply interested in the guild they shouldn't need any special attention. If they want to gain a rank and be recognized within the guild, then they need to go through a certain process before they are allowed the guild's share of knowledge, ect.

I just don't see the point in giving a rank to someone who is simply a passerby showing some interest in the organization. If they ant to pursue involvement, then they can attempt the Novice test, and/or additional requirements.

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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Fri Feb 20, 2009 7:49 am

Well, the way the charter is set up Novices basically aren't members of the guild, they can't vote and they can only issue novice-level challenges which don't actually mean anything.
But I kinda like the idea of having a requirement for people to even be recognized by the guild... Then we could have basically the same ranking hierarchy as Iohn proposed, but we'd change the charter and have a section stating that non-members can become novices by completing whatever requirement (passable weapon of w/e type [also can we exclude rocks from this?] and pass a test on the MoA). We should probably have this be retroactively applicable, that way everyone doesn't have to make another weapon to join the guild, since I think everyone who wanted to be a member at the start already has made at least one weapon of their own.

We need more opinions:
1. Should Novice rank have requirements?
2. Should there be an educational aspect to each rank (as opposed to rank being a pure reflection of smithing skill)?
3. Any other questions/concerns/criticisms for these defenitions of ranks as posted by Iohn?

If the answer to most of these 3 questions is
1 Yes
2. No
3. No

Then I think we got our weaponsmith defenitions outlined.
But if not, we kinda need to know now, or sometime before we decide to start making defenite requirements (which, as I see it, is the next step).

I for one think
1. Don't care
2. Yes
3. no (well, yes, but I've already stated them)

P.S. to adress all the questions/comments of "I don't think we should have to build more weapons to attain a higher rank", what else would we do? I mean, we need something to measure your foamsmithing skill and experience with, and the easy way I see is to require pieces, either of a certain amount or quality. If education/ helping others foamsmith is going to be an aspect of our ranking, then there'd be those requirements, plus the MoA familiarity, but they're no substitute for seeing exactly what a smith can make/has made before. Unless you've got a better idea, which I would love to hear...
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:21 am

First of all, let me just point out that what we are discussing here is the basic philosophy behind what each rank should represent. The specific requirements will be determined by the challenges issued. This is just to serve as a basic guideline for which level each different type of challenge belongs in. That said, my answers are:

1. No
2. Yes(maybe)
3. No

If you look at the rank, a novice has no voting rights, so they are basically not members of the guild. If you want, we could edit it to also say that Novices may not bear the guild symbol, or earn accolades.
(I like it as is, but I don't mind conceding that point if it's a big deal to somebody)
Novice is merely the title used to refer to those people who have begun the process of joining the guild, but have not yet attained full rank and membership. It is also a way for non-members to politely ask the guild to do something for the realm. (For example, if a non-guild member feels that there should be more blues, reds, shields, or whatever on the field for people to use, they can issue a challenge, and guild members can receive recognition for completing it) Also, our knowledge should be shared with everyone in the realm, regardless of guild status, and the whole Dagorhir community for that matter.
IMHO, it's not about keeping trade secrets, it's about improving our craft
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Fri Feb 20, 2009 9:39 am

No need to add another rank. it adds unnecessary complexity, not to mention historically there were only: Appentice, J-man, & Master. Novice is only used here as a way to define non-members who are working towards membership1.

Novice(non-member): Display interest in Weaponsmithing
Apprentice: Be intimately familiar with the weapon construction rules in the most current MOA, Be able to equip one's self with a weapon set of choice, or a shield and weapon. Know how to construct a safe blue, red, green, and white weapon. Know how to construct safe shields.
Journeyman: Learn how to construct safe and durable weapons of more than one kind. The Journeyman should grow to find a niche within the foamsmithing community and begin to pursue it (ie. archery, sword&board, spear, ect).
Master Weaponsmith: A master should be familiar with all aspects of advanced foamsmithing, but not necessarily know all techniques. A master foamsmith should at the very least know how and be able to construct a weapon from a chosen weapon category and implement the most advanced techniques and materials in the construction. Once the rank of master is attained, It is the master's responsibility to share this knowledge of advanced foamsmithing with others and actively pursue better designs and materials to benefit the Dagorhir community.
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PostSubject: Re: Ranking ideas   Fri Feb 20, 2009 11:50 am

Angus wrote:

Know how to construct a safe blue, red, green, and white weapon. Know how to construct safe shields.
Journeyman: Learn how to construct safe and durable weapons of more than one kind. The Journeyman should grow to find a niche within the foamsmithing community and begin to pursue it (ie. archery, sword&board, spear, ect).

okay 1) construct a rock???, i think that should be replaced with yellow not white. since you could take a plushy like thing and put pantyhose over it an make a rock *cough turrin cough* so that seems WAY to easy. and wat do you mean by find a niche. that sounds to much like that you have to find a fighting prowess not foamsmithin, unless you mean it as in weapon type(i.e. reds, blues, flails, etc.)
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