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Tyr

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PostSubject: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 8:57 am

so i was recently told i can be in an inter-realm unit BUT there are restrictions for it. i want to know if that is in the constitution somewhere, and peeps opinions on inter-realm units.
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Eldrin THE BLACK

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:24 am

Well, my opinion means little, but my take on it has always been that people do Dag to have fun. Thus, when people come to Dag they bring with them a vision they want to express. Sometimes people in the same geographical area don't have anyone to share their unique idea of Dag fun....but guess what? There is a whole other group of people out there with the same, or close to the same, vision.

What fun! And these people are people you don't see all the time! People that you really get excited to fight with. So, in a way, an inter-realm unit can add a whole new dimension to the fun! Smile

But, what of momma realm? Well, the entire year that person in an inter-realm unit will be supporting the realm with their attendance and hopefully in some other productive way(loaner gear, wisdom, friendliness, ideas, etc. you get the point). So in a way, a realm has little to do with 'Fighting together" an great deal more with "working together."

Sometimes you get realms that can be like units, the problem is that these can become exclusionary quite easily. If a realm is ran in a free and laid back manner, it is quite easy to get and keep new people.

If restrictions are placed on people who go to a geographical realm and want to join another unit, this can be perceived as exclusionary.

And, I don't care how you slice it Dag does not =exclusionary (save in the case of some units....like mine)

In Ravenwood, we have 3 classes of citizens.

An honorary member, who promise to never work against Ravenwood and always to work against tyrants and unfairness.

A provincial citizen who has been coming to battle regularly for 3 months. They take the oath and also to defend the ideals of our realm.

A Full citizen has a few more rights than a provincial and has been coming for a year. They reaffirm our oath again and are given supreme ability to run for everything but Chancellor(must needs retainers mark)

Any of these can be part of our realm and part of an inter-realm unit. Ravenwood basically asks that in our geographical locations they support us and helps to grow with attendance and whatever unique ability they bring to the table in that area. What we ask wouldn't conflict with an inter-realm unit.

Why do we need them to fight for our realm at events? You want some champions of your realm, start a unit. Why do they need to camp with us? They don't, we just provide a campsite for all those who voluntarily want it. Why would we ever make anyone do anything, including camping with us? That really isn't what dag is about in my opinion. What will someone add to our camp, or to us on the battlefield?

We fight to have fun and trust me, if you want honor and glory from decisive victories, making the general honkeys in your realm isn't the way to do it. They won't all fight well in formation and they really can't be counted on to take orders well, which will ruin your whole plan!!!!!!!

Start a 1337 squad if badassery is your goal. I did! I don't even let my own militia in our formations anymore(Raslin got killed in a unit battle due to untrained negligence...I swear these militiamen are impossible. $5 hours of training...for nothing!!!!!!!)


Sorry for the long post...hope I haven't offended, I tend to rant a bit a 3am.

My advice, try to relax and accommodate everyone you can without letting people do things that hurt your group.


(Spare me comments about me writing a book, I am verbose, I know, and I'm sorry)


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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 3:33 pm

If you like the unit and you think you'd have fun joining them, then sure, though it also can be outweighed by restrictions depending on what they are. Overall though I agree with Eldrin that an inter realm unit adds something new, because you have people from all over with different fighting styles and who fight with people that do things different so it also adds a good learning experience. But again, the main thing is will you be happy with it?
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Kairi Cypmann

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:17 pm

Tyr, I'm serious. Please don't start a huge argument over this. If that starts to happen, there are likely to be consequences that no one is really going to enjoy. :\

This is the official statement on this subject. If you want to join an inter-realm unit, that's fine. So long as your loyalty ultimately lies with Haven, we have no problem with that. That means that, once in a while, you'll be fighting with us on the battlefield in unit battles, too. That means that if you want to, our campgrounds are always open to you. And hopefully that would include wearing our realm symbol somehow, since you would be fighting with us basically all the time except for at events.
However, if you can't say "Sure, that's reasonable," to the above, that probably means you won't be counted as a citizen of Haven anymore. If you're not willing to fight with us at least some of the time at events, I don't see why you would be counted as a Haven citizen. You're more than welcome to be in an inter-realm unit, even if you're loyalty is reserved for that unit more than Haven, and you're still welcome to attend all our practices and such. But you're no longer able to be counted as a citizen towards a Province's amount of people needed to elect Officials and the like. You give up voting rights in doing so.

I really don't think that's asking a whole lot, to be honest. I mean, I know Ephriam is a part of the Fallen Clan, too, but so long as he'll fight with us some of the time, no one has an issue with that.

For my own sake, I'd like to state my personal opinion on inter-realm units in general (which has nothing to do with what was posted above, I just want to give my own 2cp worth of opinion), just because I find the concept to be really irritating at times. -.-; If you're a part of a unit that fights together and often camps together at events, that has it's own symbol and creed, etc., that's basically a realm without a contract and without a central geographical location. I think it's silly when people say, "But ____ can be a unit in Haven, right?" because then that wouldn't be Haven anymore. It would be something else created outside of Haven, something that is unique and exists without our realm having anything to do with it. I just think it's silly. We haven't even had many people create formal units in our own realm, so why try and bring in the already-existing ones from everywhere else?
Rawr. -.-; End rant.

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 5:59 pm

TL;DR:
1. Yes, you can be in any inter-realm unit. period.
2. Please, don't just ignore Haven when we go to war. Haven will feel unloved, and wonder if citizenship is really important to you or not.

@Tyr: don't Troll

@Kairi: don't feed the Troll

/thread.
Okay, so this is a worthy topic of discussion, so not really /thread. Just a friendly reminder that only YOU can prevent flame wars.
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Odin

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 9:09 pm

it seems to me that provinces in haven are about the same as a unit. i mean for the most part everyone in their province knows the ability the their fighters and are comfortable fighting alongside one another.

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 10:34 pm

Quote :
1. Yes, you can be in any inter-realm unit. period.
2. Please, don't just ignore Haven when we go to war. Haven will feel unloved, and wonder if citizenship is really important to you or not.
QFT
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:06 pm

Like its been said, yes you can be in an inter-realm unit. No where do we say you can't. What we ask, is that you do fight with Haven some of the battles; not every battle, some of the battles. Obviously if its a unit battle you would fight with your unit.

The only reason we would be wary is we aren't very keen on having our citizens voting under the influence of another unit that has no affiliation with Haven. The likelihood of something unwanted occurring because of a situation like that are rare, but it is possible and we want to avoid it. Dag politics are complicated enough as it is.

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Orrin None-son

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Thu Mar 05, 2009 11:36 pm

Heck, Fallen clan doesn't even vote with-in our own home realm.


I agree completly with what is said here.

You are an INDIVIDUAL first.

Your REALM comes next.

Your UNIT follows that.

Unless you yourself feel it should be differrent.


But, I dis-agree about the comment that inter-realm units are actually realms. That comes from mis-interppriting what a realm is meant to be. A realm should not have sway over what a charcter does/is. Otherwise, you are no better than the group you originally came from. Be careful, it is a slippery slope down hill...
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:22 am

@ Angus: OM NOM NOM

and for me things are kidna differen't in order of importance(since i was w/o a realm for a while)

Me
THE GAME
unit
realm

the game becomes before the realms and units, if you politic(of realms and units) starts makin so the game is no fun then i'm out, simple as that, this is GAME, have fun, i'm not lettin politics hinder me havin fun Razz
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 1:32 am

double post, i have talked with tht igit and we agree, realms are merely people in the same area who get together often to fight, units are people with maybe same fighting style/backgound/ ideolgy/ or race.
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Orrin None-son

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 3:04 am

You fight in a realm for proximaty. You fight in a unit for friendship. Or, that is how it is communly dealt as.
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Kairi Cypmann

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 4:10 am

The idea that inter-realm units are realms in and of themselves is completely a personal opinion of mine, and I'm not likely to be swayed, so I wouldn't bother arguing. It's just how I feel about it. Tell me I'm confused or what have you, I'll still think the way I do regardless. -.-;

Quote :
A realm should not have sway over what a charcter does/is.
I really don't see how we're restricting anything about character creation. Again, all that's being asked is that anyone in one of these units will still fight with Haven too once in a while. I kind of resent that comment a little. :\

On the note of our particular realm, I was under the impression we all got together, wrote this thing out as a group, and had a set of common goals, ideals, a rough background, and on top of that a strong friendship. In our own way, we began a lot like a unit more than a realm in that sense. I'm hoping people can grow to form their own units, but no one has really tried to do that so far. Up to this point, we're basically fighting unofficially with Provinces as units.

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:55 am

See, I think you read to much into what I said. I am only stating geralizations. I love Haven, and count you all(tht I have net) as friends. I always look forward to seeing you on the fields and off at events.


We all know what happends when a realm DOES take to much control over thier people, but lets not name names...lol. Let us move on past that point.


And Tyr, when I meantioned being an individual first, that is exactly what I meant by it.

And back to Kairi and Iohn, I hope we are still on for duels again...Maybe I can convince one of my clan memebers to make a a double duel... Ash or Khyn maybe.

I also have a long list of Haven duels I'd love to have.
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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:31 am

I see Kairi and Iohn's point on this, and there's something I have noticed, at least about Rolla province. All of us here fight together, pretty much as one unit, as far as Orrin's definition goes:
Orrin None-son wrote:
You fight in a unit for friendship.
Rolla Province, (and Haven, for that matter) is small enough right now that we all stick together as one group. We are all friends/brothers/sisters under the crimson gate, and we're happy that way. It makes sense for us not to split up into units, because as a realm, we're developing our own unique identity. As Cheshire Cat so eloquently wrote on the midwest boards, "Together, the Midwest is the biggest group of Dagorhirrim since the Aratar'i" In a sense, Haven is a Unit of the Midwestern realm. For people like Iohn and Kairi who pretty much started Haven, it can be scary to see people show more interest and enthusiasm for a realm or unit from somewhere else. If too many people decide to pledge loyalty to other realms and units, we risk losing that unique identity and just become a place for people to get together and fight, only to split up and go our separate ways at events. On the other hand, the whole point of Haven is to be a melting pot, a land for those with no place to call home. We are the new world. Like America, we are united by our differences. To expand on the metaphor, an Irishman can come over to America, and become an American citizen, but still keep all of his Irish Heritage. And hopefully, He'd have some American patriotism as well.

What Iohn and Kairi are worried about is a situation like the one Svip is in now, where you fight with one realm or unit on a regular basis, but your loyalty clearly lies elsewhere. In fact, even that would be fine as long as you weren't a voting member of the group you were fighting with. I'd like to point out that this is all merely a philosophical exercise, and is really only relevant in a hypothetical future situation. Imagine if a couple of our guys decided to be Romans. Then imagine that they started trying to get everyone else to become romans, and then they ran for offices, and started trying to change garb requirements, and wanted to change our name from "Haven" to "the great Western Empire". This could all be avoided if we approached the roman guys at first and said, hey, why don't you guys join Rome, and just fight with us as guests. It's far-fetched, and in the case of Tyr and Ephraim, not very relevant. The point is that we don't want to set the precedent that people can join inter-realm units willy-nilly, without considering where their loyalty ultimately lies. Ravenwood and Alterra Units are a unique case, since we have strong friendships with those realms. Had the question been, "Can I join a unit of Ravenwood?" the answer might well have been a simple yes. However, you asked about anyone joining any inter-realm unit, a question that requires a much more complicated answer. As a rule of thumb, before you cast a vote with Haven, ask yourself, am I voting to make Haven better, stronger, and more Haven-like, or am I just voting to make Haven more like group X, that I ultimately prefer over Haven? If you tend to vote the second way, you should probably just leave and join group X. (We'll miss you, but you'll be happier with group X)



tl;dr: I wax esoteric and pontificate for a while, without really advancing the plot at all. Unless you like Melville, you can probably skip this whole chapter and not miss much.

tl;tl;dr;dr: TOO LONG; DON'T READ.
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 10:01 am

here is my outtake on inter-realm units, realms are like nations, you pledge ur loyalty to them, however an inter-realm unit is like a multinational squad, you all fight together and die together. they live together.

but i have to throw this out there since i seem to be the big fly here, i'm loyal ot haven only cause my friends are here. we have all learned by now if i see somthing that is unfair i will stand agaist, whether i'm alone in that stance or not, there have been many many many times i have stood alone, and face many(even here)but i still stood up for it. i'm only here cause i want ot make it easier for my friends, i don't care really bout much else, i'm here only to help friends and help others. I don't care if there from my realm or not, i will help out anyone i see fit to help out. noone will stop me with that, i decided to come back cause the peeps up here know i help them out alot, i really never miss there practices, i have like THE best attendence, i come and i help them out, they are the ones that kept naggin and naggin at me that i'm a havenor, so finally i caved and decided to come back. but i learn i really don't have any rights by pledgin loyalty. if that be the case then i was no better off then i was before, just now i have more rules i have to follow, listen i have done thing my way for a while, i'm here to have fun and help others. i don't cate really bout havin a realm flag, i have my personal one. i figured since i'm always here i might stake some kinda claim to it you know.

ty:dr I'm a crank stubbern vampire,and quite hard to deal with.
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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 5:00 pm

Tyr wrote:
tl:dr I'm a crank stubbern vampire,and quite hard to deal with.
Dissenting opinions are a vehicle by which we grow stronger as a realm. It's important to stand up to authority when there's a problem. It's also important not to stir things up for no reason. Things like "Politics" and "Drama" are merely abstract concepts. You can't be for or against them any more than you can disagree with gravity.(you can, but it has no meaning and gets you nowhere) Some things simply are. The important difference between being a citizen,(of any group or organization) and not being a citizen, is that as a citizen, you have the right and the power to change things for the better. A non-citizen can talk all they want about how things should be, but the citizens only really care about the opinions of the citizens. That's what a vote is: it's the right for your opinion to actually mean something. I know how important your friends are to you, so I know that you care about Haven being a good realm just as much as everyone else does. Your purpose here is to be the leader of the rebellion, to be the dissenting opinion. That's fine, but to serve your purpose well, you need to be able to express that opinion effectively. When there is a problem, a flaw in the system, it falls to you to point it out to the rest of us. But your job does not stop there. If you're the only one that thinks there's a problem, nothing will get changed. You need to stir up support for your opinions. Figure out what needs to be changed, and start getting people on your side.

So this is my question for you, and I want you to think before you answer: What needs to be changed right now?
And bear this in mind, if you know in your heart that the answer is nothing, then you're probably just trolling for attention, and I shall dub thee Tyr, the West Haven Board Troll, and you shall be feared across the boards...
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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:06 pm

@ Angus ON NOM NOM
but seriously i have no intention of leading a rebelion, i'm not much for leading(though i think some would follow, prolly not from here though) and i started this thread not because i wished to cause any trouble really but because i didn't think it was right to leave this decision in one(or two) people's hands. this is something that may/can effect the realm as a whole and should be discussed with the whole realm. no offense to Iohn or Kairi, and Angus you cna give wat ever title you wish i have so many as it is i'll forget it within a day, up here i'm warmind, in most of the midwest i'm already known, maybe more so then this realm, i'm a board vamp lol, i and one of the undead trio that keep the midwest boards alive, i think i'm goin to be a mod on the ave-alterra site soon, and i have friends all over the midwest. so yes i can rally peeps up for my cause, the reason i never do is cause most of my allies aren't in this realm. Wat i think right now that needs to be changed is dues, i think dues should apply to those it applies to. As of right now Rolla is the only province that uses funds, we up here always pay for our own way to do things, while it is nice to some kinda fund somewhere to help, i feel that we shouldn't burden the whole realm with something thats really only affecting one province, like i wouldn't expect Svip to have to pay dues so that peeps up here can turn and use them, he could use that same money there were he needs it. or make it so if you don't pay dues then you can't get any help from dues. thats my two cents on that matter, the reason i didn't bring it up when haven was forming was that EVERY time i brought up a valid point or anything really, my idea was instantly shot down, whether it was because peeps didn't like it or that they thought it wouldn't happen, or that i was just being paranoid bout wat if scenarios. so after the first like three times i stopped voicing my opinion, no point in trying to stand up when everyone in the room will just knock you right back down. so go ahead and give me a title, i care not, i have voiced my peice.

tl:dr i'm cranky vamp, idc bout any titles you give me really, i hate dues, and this issue effects the whole realm..
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:46 pm

First off, dues are in place to do a very specific thing, and that is to help the realm grow. In a world where money is power, it helps a province get off the ground and stay up. To pay dues is to CONTRIBUTE in some way to the betterment of the realm or province. And I'm almost certain that it was resolved: that dues may be paid in the form of materials specific to Dagorhir. This sounds a lot like what you felt should be done about it. So please tell me what is still a problem. If one were to skimp on dues, they could make a 28" blue sword for the realm that would cost no more than $5 in material costs.

We all realize that a few things need to be revised and possibly changed in our system of government before everything is "just right". And we all fully expected for us to need to do this. We needed SOMETHING to follow to see if it worked and if we needed to change it. That was the point of those meetings during the summer: to get Haven to a point were we could work with something. It is now apparent that some changes need to be made and those are being worked on. A lot of people have voiced their opinions on things they think need to be reconsidered.

Please be patient. This process will, unfortunately, take a bit of time.

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Kairi Cypmann

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 8:56 pm

No one is stopping the Blue Springs Province from using dues. Or from doing anything they want. Whoever collects them is currently in charge of them, and they can spend them as they see fit. Maybe they could be used for gas money to help drive people out to Gates? Or to buy ropes for your practices so you can have bridge battles and stuff, too? It's totally up to what you all want to do.

I think everyone has this weird impression that we're controlling everything in Rolla and purposely leaving people out in Blue Springs. The only reason I can come up with as to why you think that way is because of what happened with Madea: She literally refused to speak to me, which made it almost impossible to get anything done for you guys. With Tygreive now, that shouldn't be an issue. You all seem to get upset whenever we decide to do something, but if you guys have an idea to do something too, by all means, give it a shot. No one is stopping you from having a good time except yourselves.
We're also trying to lower the level of starting Province Official to 5 citizens and then every ten after that, that way you guys have at least two or three representatives instead of just one. We aren't power-hungry and we aren't out to hurt anyone; I more than anyone realize how unfair it currently is that Iohn and I both have a vote and only Tygreive besides. Regrettably, the amount of people who make it to practices is low enough that it's causing problems in that regard, because there aren't enough people to elect more council members to get things done, which causes a tip in the balance and makes us seem like we're leaving you in the dust. Knowing that, I'm doing my best to not do anything totally unfair and try and make it as even as possible. Also realize that the only 'advantage' this would give us would be in the Conclave, which never even meets except to approve a new Province, a Guild or something, or in the case that a Province Official can't handle a situation and they need the help of more people to decide something (like if I were involved in a fight with someone and couldn't remain unbiased, I'd want Iohn and Tygreive to decide what needs to be done, etc.). That basically means that, besides in those rare, rare cases, there isn't anything being done here that Blue Springs can't do, too.

On that note: No one can fix things except you guys. No one can increase attendance there except you guys. No one can make practice there fun except you guys. The excuse that "you all have lives" is kind of lame, because I'm a full-time college student; I have quite the life, so much so that the only real free-time I have gets put into Dagorhir-related things 90% of the time. I still make it out to practice twice a week, though. And I know people that go to college and work down here and/or do sports with the college, too, and still make it to practices. If you want things to get better, you have to try and actually solve problems (or at least bring them to light), otherwise it's just hard feelings and no resolutions.

In short, I love you all, you're all my friends, we started this together, and I don't want anyone to be upset. If someone has an issue with anything, especially with what I'm doing, please say something and don't just quietly hold a grudge. I can't read minds, especially over the internet. You have to help me to help you. ;.;

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Fri Mar 06, 2009 9:42 pm

Kairi, I think I agree with you...I think.


People who run things are the ones that take the trouble to organize and come up with ideas. Whether you have an "elected" position or not. If you stand around all day and complain that nothing is getting done, and then, do nothing, you will never run anything. If you always leave all the thinking and work(mainly work though) to your elected officials, you will never be elected because you haven't proven that you can do anything on your own, without someone else telling you what to do.

Remember, most realm running ideas don't take a genius, they take common sense.

So, really, JFK(paraphrased) said it right when he said, 'Ask not what your realm can do for you, but what you can do for your realm."

So, work hard for your realm, respect the people that spend so much time, worry and effort to provide a place for you and Dagorhir to exist, and then one day you will probably be in charge.

I've seen this before though. Right now Kairi and Iohn probably have the majority vote or influence for a reason and I highly doubt it has anything to do with favoritism or whatever people like to make to complain about when they are lazy and just want to blame it on someone instead of themselves.

So I say that you should ask your self real long and hard if you would even be in Dagorhir or how far you realm got without Kairi and Iohn....and then, that might change your perspective on any sort of 'power hungry" ideas you might have.

I hope that made sense, and I am not trying to cause or argue with any one, but I support Iohn and Kairi becasue they had the initiative to start and maintain Haven. Besides, they both seem like very down to earth, nice people and I couldn't see them ever being, "Tyrannical."

Go Iohn and Kairi!
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Kairi Cypmann

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Sat Mar 07, 2009 12:42 am

I'd just like to state that Iohn and myself didn't create Haven. The people of Haven created Haven, and we were picked by the people to do the jobs we're doing. It was definitely a group effort to start us off, so give credit to those who deserve it in that regard, at least. The only thing we've done worth merit is maintain what was set into motion. Hopefully we're doing an ok job.

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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:11 am

T.T i always seem to be the bad guy, dam this sux.. Well i want it to be known i never said Iohn and Kairi did a bad job, the only thing i said was (beside the fact i just hate doin certain shit) is that i thought this matter concerned the whole realm and as such made a thread for it. i know that Haven right now is small enough that even one persons voice is heard. Otherwise this threrad would have gotten overlooked. I'm REALLY not trying to be the bad guy. I'm no leader of a rebellion, i'm that one guy who lurks in the shadows and only says somthing when need be. I'm no real leader. i'm the guy who can't take orders.

\tl:dr i'm less cranky cause i gots meh coffee, i seem to be the bad guy T.T, can't we all just hug one another and be happy?
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Orrin None-son

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Sat Mar 07, 2009 1:38 am

I think it has came down to the point where everyone is saying hte same thing, just in different words. lets let this die for a few days... come back later and re-read it. I bet we would all read it clearer then.
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Eldrin THE BLACK

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PostSubject: Re: inter-realm units   Sat Mar 07, 2009 2:02 pm

*BUMP


LOLZ


I know Kairi, I wasn't insulting anyone. I was kinda of behind the scenes defending you and Iohn. Not everybody speaks openly...and I won't speak for them, but if you won't say to someone's face(in a charitable way at least) what you'll say behind their back....you are a coward.
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