Bringing back Haven ranks

I'm with Logar. Like Iohn said: Keep it simple and fun.

there is always the elite method i tried to start...

If you're going to do ranks, i'd say have like 3 or 5 people be a committee and make the final decision for yes/no on haven ranks and if so, how they are structured.

Also if you want I could throw some variants from amtgard/bel/sca stuff I've seen.

if you do wat crux says, take one person per place, to make it fair...

idk if thats all that fair, since the majority of the realm is in rolla, be sure tho that if a committee comes to be they will consider the separated fighters

If we do make a comitee, it would have to be only one person from each place to make it fair. BUT when deciding they would have to take into account variances due to the different sizes of the groups. like.. ROlla could have a certain way of ranking due to thier numbers where as blue springs would have to modify it for our lack of numbers OR vice-versa, come up with a way for the smaller places to do ranking, and break the bigger plaecs into small groups at practices to rank. xD


not the best wording but I think you guys get what I'm going for, right?

Honestly, we've tried doing inter-province ranks before and having representatives, ect and it worked about as well as a square wheel uphill.

The ONLY way to do inter-province ranking that I would be okay with is
a) the silly XP based system Angus came up with or some variant
b) or ranking at events

i'd go with A, one it's more geeky two, not everyone can go to events

or we can let all the ranking stay in the units

I actually like Angus' system. Its fun. That's what ranking should be about. Even better, it actually represents a fighters rank pretty accurately based on experience in the game.

If its too geeky, we could come up with names/titles for each "level" making it sound more legitimate. For example:

Lvls 1-2: Recruit
Lvls 3-4: Man-at-Arms
Lvls 5-6: Sergeant
Lvls 7-8: Squire
Lvls 9-10: Knight

Since everyone's doing it anyway, let's just call level zero the starting point.
And just so we're clear, this is casual hobby, for fun, so since there aren't any Dagorhir police enforcing laws requiring people to address certain people as 'Knight', I wouldn't worry too much about an 'Official' rule system.

Here are some guidelines (not hard-and-fast rules) on what level of involvement, skill, and responsibility you should expect from each level of member:

Level 1+ Qualified to explain the basic rules to new members, and hopefully get their friends involved in the sport. Expected to have own equipment, or borrow at most one piece of equipment.

2+ qualified to run equipment check at practices.
In order to check and pass or fail equipment, need to pass the MoA test without getting any questions wrong. Expected to have own equipment, and possibly a few extras.


3+ qualified to train new fighters in proper technique and basic strategy. They are also qualified to run practices. Expected to have enough passing equipment to share with others. Expected to take officer positions and leadership roles in the group.

4+ Members at or below your level should be able to look to you for help and guidance in all aspects of the game. Even in areas where you are inexperienced, you should at least know where a person can go to find the answers they're seeking.

Sounds fine to me.

okay.... lol. so most of us from BS would be 4? i'm guessing? an if i'm considered in haven.. (idk if i am) would i still qualify past 3, cause i kinda gave away enough equipment before i left to equip an unit, but i couldn't take it with me so i'm down to a shield and sword..

To build on what Angus said, I think to rank in Haven you need to identify as Haven. This means wearing realm garb (green tunic/red pants or equivalent) and having your own weapon(s). For normality's sake we could simply refer to XP as marks, so people like Odin don't headdesk over D&D references. The system itself, however, I think we should run with. I also think practicing temporarily with other realms should count towards "marks" to rank. Instead of measuring by levels, however, we could define our ranks by how many marks it takes to attain that rank. For example...

Man-at-Arms
-10 marks (3 from event)
Page
-20 marks (6 from events)
-garb exceeds min. standards, and superior weapon construction
-Shows capable leadership skills
Squire
-30 marks (9 from events)
-Vet level garb, and well defined fighting style
-clear understanding of combat mechanics and strategy
-Takes on officer positions and responibilities
Knight
-40 marks (must attend rag once)
-Excellent garb and weapons
-Armor covering at least x strike zones
-Master in at least x weapon sets
-Demonstrates strong leadership in Dag, Haven, and Boffer Club

Iohn de Mar wrote:

For normality's sake we could simply refer to XP as marks, so people like Odin don't headdesk over D&D references.

i can never be a knight, ill never be able to attend a rag, at least the way it sits, an my fighting styles dont always allow armor, an personally i dont think armor should be required... but hey tis the opinion of someone who matters not, ...

Alright, so I haven't read this thread in months. As such, I just went through and reread the whole thing.
And for the first time ever, I actually like the idea of realm ranks. I didn't feel like that until I got to Ian's last post, however.

I honestly think that's a badass way to rank, because it also allows people to rank who are not actually located in Rolla. Not only that, but it's a fun way of making a unified realm-wide system, not just a system for units.

My only amendment to those ideas is that for the people who are fighting at those other practices, we need the person running that practice to vouch for them (that way someone can't pretend they've been going to, say, Dominion practices once a week when really they only went once ever month or so or something). I don't think that'd be difficult to do, either, since almost everyone who runs a practice is on the Midwest boards. We can just get on there and ask people to vouch for that person and bam, you'll get at least one if not more responses saying, "Yeah, he/she was here."

I have actually been working on a ranking system to give more incentive to members to develop technique/skill. Since the discussion over the Advertising Dagorhir thread I have also noticed that it is clear we need designated officials who are capable of teaching newcomers and/or possibly doing demonstrations. I think it would be really good to have people that are easy to pick out if you were new and needed a couple pointers.

The experience/marks idea sounds awesome and don't get me wrong, I like it, but it kind of cuts off our regular practices as important and gives a really sparse chance to ascend/obtain rank. It puts a lot of time into counting that could be spent fighting. I would rather see combat ranks, and maybe some "Elder" ranks for people who have a high level.

Here is my proposal for a ranking system:


Titles and Ranks
· Champion
· Master of Arms (R,G,Bu,Ba,W)
o (color) Master of Arms
o 1st Officer of (color) Arms
o 2nd Officer of (color) arms

Color code:
R-Red
G-Green(spear)
Bu-Blue(single/dual)
Ba-Black(Shield)
W-White(Ranged)


*Champion- general master of combat

· Champion of the Tournament
· Will retain title until the next tournament and a new champion arises
· May successively be champion w/o limit
· One champion per color (maybe plus God of War, Purple)


*Master of Arms- knowledgeable in the use of a weapon set

· Challenges may be made only on the week of that color on a day which the herald can be present. i.e. each color takes turns, only one color per week can make challenges. (allows masters to retain rank for atleast a month)
· A challenge may only be made to the rank above your own
· Challenges will start with the high ranks and follow with lower
· Any non ranking member who wishes to gain rank must survive a free for all consisting of all others competing for the same position. The survivor will then be allowed to challenge the lowest ranking officer.

[ can limit ranks, probably only master, 1st and 2nd officers. So that there are less rank battles]
[ can limit allowed sections -> can only rank in one color]



The Champion is meant as a temporary role, and maybe they get special abilities during particular battles.

The Master of Arms position is intended to designate members as “available to help” for anyone who is new or wants to learn more about how to use a particular weapon set. They should also be fully knowledgeable in the rules of the game and able to herald.

Notice that since the rank challenges for Master of Arms go from top to bottom, it is possible for a master to be completely kicked out of the ranks in a single day after 3 successive losses. But a newcomer cannot rank to master without being successful for 3 different challenge weeks. Which makes it extremely hard to just “become a master.”

I grouped them as colors so it can be more general and the officers could be in any unit without conflicting with internal workings of the unit (ranks) if there are any. The limit on ranking in only one color is to
1. keep competing members/(fight time) down and
2. to promote emphasis and pride in a particular weapon set.

If a different province wanted to use these ranks, they could just have a Master for that province. The main point of making these ranks is to put an emphasis on weapon technique and fighting style not just general weapon mastery. So the ranks do not really conflict across provinces, because the ranks “could” be replicated but the limit of available ranks gives an achievement.

I would plan on doing a Tournament every cycle of Master's Challenges, so about every month and a half or so.

....the only reason i was interested in ranking was because we did a ranking thing one practice and it stopped practice for a fair amount while 3-4 ppl did a ranking event. Because of that I wanted to rank so that when we did that again i could fight. I agree that ranks can be good, but they should be combat based only, no counting wars or what have you. Decide some test in a field battle and have a herald watch a candidate closely to see if they pass or something.

ex: to move up to rank "hahai'mbetterthanyou," you need to kill on average three people per res. Have herald watch this person and keep track. if it averages out they pass, if not they don't. maybe add some balance to keep them from only going after newbs or something

I think this idea would be great for tournaments, but not so sure about it being used as a realm-wide ranking system. Realm-wide ranking never sees to work out very well.

Also, all that looked good except for shield master....explain. Would they just fight with a shield?

shield should be *sword and board*

If we don't do a competitive ranking system then we at least need some new officer positions.
We don't have a public relations coordinator or a demonstrations/recruitment officials/speakers. Its important that we have people designated as our ambassadors to the public and new members.

I really would like some way to contest ability as well. Tournaments only would probably work.

the president is the PR person. As far as recruiting goes that sca video angus posted is good stuff. just pick some ppl who can speak well and represent us as sane people.

I see no problem in having a competitive ranking system, so long as it is kept separate from club positions. just rank the top 10 fighters and let everyone fight for those spots god of war style.

I would rather see different areas to compete in, that way we can have more people who have a rank.
If it was just one single line up, I think people would get too cocky/pissed off about it.
I think having a God of War tournament would work, and naming the champion. But keeping your rank as number 7 in the tournament kinda sucks.
If there are a bunch of ranks I think people will discouraged with starting at the very bottom. Having only a few ranks for each type, and having them easier to rotate through will give people more incentive.

Like I was saying before though, my point isn't to develop a system to say "I'm better than you" its to develop technique and pride in a weapon set. Tournaments are good enough for claiming superiority but I don't think there should be any ranks under champion.
If the champion is really good he should be able to start from scratch the next tournament and win again.
Having a master is more of a way to give people a "mini-unit" that is designated by a weapon skill type. Since we don't have running units or any unit practices going, I think we need some type of a way to designate people who can help to develop technique or give specific drills.
If we had a master of each type, we could do a drill practice and break up people automatically. If the masters are devoted to being the best of a certain weapon type they will be better at teaching/drilling other members. As it is, we kind of pick people who have an idea and let them talk. Not really people who have been trying hard to be the best at anything.

I personally think ranking is stupid, because everyone ends up getting butt-hurt over something in the end. I've literally seen this get tried in a number of realms a number of different times, and it's mostly a huge waste of time and effort because it ends up falling through and causing problems later. In short: I am definitely against realm-ranking.

Tournaments are great. Always do tournaments. However, having people "rank" in a weapons set to be some odd officer variation is going to do nothing but complicate things. With that many ways to rank, basically everyone at practice is going to have some kind of rank or another. Tournaments give people just enough motivation to better themselves if they want to, and yet they don't force anyone to train unnecessarily if they don't.

Whoever appears to be the best fighter on the field in any given weapons set should just be the guy you point to when someone picks up a new weapon and says, "How do I fight well with this?" You just send that person to whoever you feel is knowledgeable. It's that simple. Just because someone "trys hard to be the best" doesn't mean they're good in any way shape or form, and in fact those people usually tend to THINK they're really good and know what they're talking about when they don't. They're more likely to turn people away from the sport or irritate a newcomer than give good advice.
In short, anyone who picks up a spear should be able to be pointed to Squall or Barca. Anyone who picks up a sword and a shield should be sent to Iohn, or Odin, or Lobster, or Angus, or any number of long-time veteran fighters who know what they're talking about. It's almost always obvious who the best guys on the field are anyway, even to the newbies, so this is kind of a pointless thing to worry about. Just encourage them to ask someone for advice.

Also, PR and everything else is in the job descriptions of the e-board officials. You're going to end up with so many people trying to "run" practice that there are going to be fights, coordination issues, and issues of how to actually effectively get anything done. The President should be in charge of a lot of that, but the Secretary should also be out there getting to know people and organize what's going on. I would hope the other officials would step in and help out as well, since we do have 4 positions. However, the more people you have in a club that's fairly small like ours (we have roughly 30 members, and 4 people can get the job done for that amount easily) the more problems you're going to create for yourself.
In short, those things are YOUR job as an official (and the jobs of the other officials). Don't depend on the rest of the club to do the dirty work for you. You volunteered yourself. Plus I'm sure you'll notice pretty quick that most people are very ready and willing to help out whenever you need a few extra guys to do a specific task.

And for the record, saying that you don't want to develop a system to say "I'm better than you" and then saying you want people to feel pride in a weapon set is kind of an oxymoron. Let me speak from 4 years of experience, both in Haven and at inter-realm events, when I say that the guys who are the most dickish people on the field are always the ones with the most ranks and titles and shit. :\

Please also keep in mind that while a few people are very interested in their technique and in running serious drills, the vast majority of people on the field really just want to go out there and have a good time, regardless of whether or not they're super awesome or just ok at the sport. By running constant drill practices, you're going to turn away most of our members. Just something to think about.