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 Bringing back Haven ranks

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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Apr 30, 2011 3:23 am

For clarification, "realm-wide" ranking is not such a good idea. "Unit" ranking is a perfect idea.

I would also encourage a system of tournament awards. It encourages people to be better fighters. I support tournament titles, just not as "ranks" per say.

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:44 pm

Sounds fair enough, I think we could do better to have a lot more tournaments. We don't need to throw party or have a feast at each one. Just keep it simple, take it to a park and make a day out of it.

My concern was that people would have to ask and try to figure it out who they could ask for help. If we just have short introductory drills that will give newcomers a chance to recognize veterans I would think that would work too.
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Kairi Cypmann

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Apr 30, 2011 5:56 pm

Something we all thought would be a good idea last semester that we never got around to was giving yellow arm bands to all the e-board officials at a given practice. That way you guys are clearly the ones to go to for questions, and you can redirect people as you see fit.

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Odin

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Apr 30, 2011 6:02 pm

when i was prez i often wasn't in the warm up battles, I just told everyone to do a kill your killer because it runs itself. during that time i would be the one talking to new ppl etc, and one thing i've noticed is that many of them don't really want to be given pointers right off the bat. they come into it thinking they know what to do already. I explain the rules and if they want more i give them some pointers. usually they just can't wait to get in the fight.

Then after a while of fighting if you see something they could do better at, go up and tell them. i've stopped fighting during a field battle many times to tell a newb on the other team how to do stuff.

easing them into it is the best system i've found. If they really want training, they'll ask for it.

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Bro'gar
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Apr 30, 2011 11:12 pm

I think part of what I was really trying to do was turn boff'er into a sport. My girlfriend pointed out that "Masters" are really the same as coaches.
Realistically I think you guys are right, we can't force people to care or they are just going to get annoyed. We don't even have anyone who could be considered masters really. I don't know how long you guys have been doing this, but the people who generally teach classes are 10-15 year veterans from what I've seen. Maybe we should just refer people to online sources.

There isn't really much point in recognizing people who have gotten better, since they are going to be distinguished on the field anyways.
I just know that the times when I can't wait till its Wednesday is after I have been hitting the punching bag every night thinking about combat strategy, or just made a new weapon and can't wait to try it out.
I would really like some way to instill pride in the sport instead of having people who just do it when they want to, like its no better than any video game.
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sun May 01, 2011 5:39 pm

I think there are a few guys in Dag who feel like you do, and they're also frustrated by the fact that the majority of the people in Dag are just in it for something fun to do. The fact of the matter is, we're not technically a sport so much as a LARP group; we're a lot more physically active than most LARP groups, yes, and don't put too much emphasis on character, but we're still a medieval combat reenactment group-- in short, a LARP. :\

What might work better for you is finding the few guys at our practices who feel the same way you do and forming a unit of guys who take Dagorhir more as a sport and therefore are more serious about it. You could have unit practices, and eventually by example you'll probably get more people more interested in bettering themselves in combat.
It might take a while to do that, though, so don't be disappointed if it's just you and one or two more guys at first. From what I've seen, units take a loooong time to form and don't just spring up over night.

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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sun May 01, 2011 5:48 pm

I understand your frustration, Bro'gar. The inherent problem with these kinds of ideas is not the idea itself so much as the element it is applied to. Since the beginning (circa 1970s) Dagorhir has been structured in a way that makes it difficult to establish any kind of strong central authority in a realm. Instead, most of the authority is assumed to belong to the individual units/groups of a realm. Since what you were originally proposing is a wide-scale legislation for new realm-ranks, the very idea of implementing anything realm-wide conflicts with the tenets of Dagorhir as a game.

I have pondered how to accomplish the goal you're trying to achieve for Haven, and after a number of failed attempts I've come to a few conclusions.
-There needs to be a clear definition of how a unit plays Dag: as a sport, or a hobby. The main difference here being the "stick-jock" vs. "roleplayer" mentality.
-Communicate w/ other realms who have done similar things to some degree.
-Look at other units for rank inspiration, what works, what doesn't, ect.
-Most importantly: lead by example. This means gathering a small like-minded group in the realm and encouraging the rest to follow in your lead by being good fighters, good teachers and leaders, and looking good on the field (garb).

Like I said earlier, I'll support the tournament rank idea as long as its not pushed on the whole realm first. Let people ease into it by just holding tournaments and bestowing a title for the winner.




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Tyr

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Mon May 02, 2011 4:45 pm

Calm down there sparky; to be blunt an.honest, it really is alot like a vid game, this Is a GAME, its cool to ne enthusiastic, but dont overboard, trust me!
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Odin

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Mon May 02, 2011 11:15 pm

???

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Mon May 02, 2011 11:39 pm

I think dag is nothing like some of the video games that have come out in the past 10-15 years. The closest sort of "game" dag comes to is probably table-top gaming, and even that's a long stretch.

From how I've seen Dag evolve over the past ten years, we have become very much a sport. While there is still a deeply ingrained fantasy culture in Dag, the focus has shifted towards the fighting and less on the roleplay.

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Tue May 03, 2011 5:11 am

fighting is awesome though
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Odin

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Tue May 03, 2011 2:37 pm

stick jocks ftw!

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Tue May 03, 2011 4:07 pm

What im saying, dag isnt a way of life its something you do in your freetime. If you take it to seriously you will eventually burn out, Rule 15 of the internet. .fighting is fun, role playing is amazing. The real trick is trying to find a happy medium. An with ranks, same thing, Rule 15, your better off unit ranks.
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Fri Jul 15, 2011 2:52 am

Bump.

There are other realms out there who have realm-wide ranks that work, and I believe we can also make it work. From what I've observed in the past couple of years Rolla-Haven will never have enough active membership to field units. We are however essentially one large unit in the way we practice, fight, and socialize.

A student who participates will have 4 years at the most with Haven before they leave, and I think it would add an element of camaraderie if we had a ranking system in the short time a fighter will spend with Rolla-Haven.

I'd like to have a discussion of what *would* work instead of why it can't work.
1. Most importantly ranks need to be attainable by a college student with limited funds and time.
2. They should also reflect the natural division between noob, regular, and veteran.
3. Ranks should require some amount of time/dedication to acheive, while still being practical.

Discuss.


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Odin

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Fri Jul 15, 2011 5:18 am

we can name ranks later but here is my idea (sad I won't be there tho...)

(rank) 1 - pay dues, show up
2 - Have weapon and basic garb
3 - show up often, pass 1 trial
4 - attend an event, have "good" garb
5 - pass a harder trial, know all major combat and weapon rules, trained as herald
6 - attend 2 more events, master a weapon set
7 - defeat every active member in a duel without losing. (if you loose one, you start over)


not perfect but there's one idea, also there would be a certain time that you would stay at a rank. such as be an active member for 3 weeks to get to rank 1.

I should also add that those who are at a rank are still expected to do everything they did at a lower rank.

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Mon Jul 18, 2011 4:04 pm

Lol the way that is, noone would be lvl 7 xp
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Mon Jul 18, 2011 5:34 pm

I don't know about giving a rank to someone who merely shows up and pays dues. I see ranks being a way to differentiate the "members" from the "vets". Although I like the general layout of that system.

Some of the criterion you mention sounds really good, such as time w/ the club, events attended, and combat trials. I just think we should focus less on "time w/ club" than the others simply because it will be the hardest to fulfill for a student.

What about service requirements though for people who maybe have the time to attend, but are not able to do the combat trials or attend an event. An example would be providing weapons, ropes, flags, heralding, ect. And for doing these things for X time they could rank for it.

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Tue Jul 19, 2011 2:01 am

My rank idea:

You can call yourself any rank that you desire, you just have to convice the officers that you deserve it

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Tue Jul 19, 2011 6:07 pm

@Barca: that's how the majority of Dag works, and as fun as it may be for a new person to call themselves a king no one will respect them until they prove themselves. A (simple) ranking system would help guide the process of becoming distinguished among his/her peers in Dag.

The real question will be whether or not people will want to rank, or simply show up and fight for 2 hours on wednesdays. I always thought the combat trials were fun, but I feel that that should not be the only way for someone to rank.

Not everyone who is a good fighter is also a good leader/organizer and vice versa. And I feel that leaders/organizers should be distinguished as well as the good fighters.

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Wed Jul 20, 2011 9:18 pm

We could try this system:

Level 1 - Just joined
Level 2 - Paid dues for first year
Level 3 - learned basic rules of fighting and damage/kills
Level 4 - First kill of the day
Level 5 - Perfect punching bag
Level 0 - demotion due to extreme levels of cheeseballery
Level 6 - Twelve years old and in seventh grade
Level 7 - Attends first event
Level 9000 - Use of effective Kamehameha wave
Level Stupid - OP as stupid
And so on....



But seriously, I agree with Iohn on service. Anybody can show up to practice and pay dues, but time spent does not merit resemble.

I don't mind ranking, though I don't expect a very high one anytime soon, or possibly within the next three+ years I do this. But, I want to be a great fighter. Also, in my opinion, better fighters shouldn't receive higher ranks just because they're better than other people, because Rule Zero is that Dag is a sport of honor. So some beastly fighter who acts like a dick all the time doesn't deserve a higher rank.

Also, lololololol @ Barca lol!
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Thu Jul 21, 2011 5:42 pm

Would we want to have separate ways to rank?
For example, you could have a series of combat trials, service to the Realm (heralding/volunteering), and Foamsmithing/Garbcraft.
We could give titles/ranks as to interest, maybe not just a straight 1234567.
I would agree that it should be based on merit, not attendance. If nothing else to keep our books simple.
I wish we could have weapons class masters, like awarded titles for a tournament. So people wouldn't get to a high rank, then we change the trials and it gets harder/easier. That way it would be based on continued ability.

I am worried about interest though, and if there is no gain to it. Busy people set priorities :/ Nothing to do though really than to try it out. I'm interested for sure.
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Iohn deMar
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Thu Jul 21, 2011 7:05 pm

Wow Jeiku, I lold!

The way I see it, someone who puts 3 years into Boffer Club should be a relatively high rank simply because they won't be at school for much longer. If ranking is based on dedication to the Club, that means that the best fighter with the biggest dick won't necessarily be the highest rank. On the other hand a high ranked fighter who got there by dedication and hard work shouldn't be a total noob either.

I also don't think meeting the minimum reqs for being a Boffer Club member should warrant a rank. Just because Bobby Mcbobersson paid $5 dues, made a lousy blue sword, and patched together a tunic from a stained bedsheet, doesn't mean he should get a rank in my mind. Now, if Bobby boy decided to learn better footwork, build better weapons, understand the rules enough to herald a few times, and volunteer to help with an on-campus demo, then he should be distinguished by a rank or title.


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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Thu Jul 21, 2011 8:54 pm

Would anyone care for the vote of someobe not in the club? Yeah, this is a dag realm, not bofferclub, I think for people in rolla.maybe have ranks in the.clun seperate then.in the realm, cause there are people in the realm not in rolla, so if there is to be a REALM rank system maybe try an include everyone? An idea I picked up from amtgard, give out awards dor certain things, then the person with the most of one type of award gets a rank? Types to include, weapon set fightin, leadership, garb, weapon making, volunteerin to herold, story telling (creative stories/ backstories) dedication to the realm, etc... That way,you have only a set amount of ranks, they are knowledgabke to teach others, it incourages tryin to rank cause you still have something to show for your work, but hey, im just the vamp in the background, its the group,who has the say.
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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Jul 23, 2011 4:39 am

Tyr wrote:
cause there are people in the realm not in rolla,.

"you"
me
Ephram (spell check?)
our wonderful tea master
....am i missing any others?

point being if the majority of the people are in rolla, and for all purposes the realm is a unit, then i see nothing wrong here. the boffer club is a front for dag yes, but they are basically the same.

now hitting my system up again (rank 7 was me getting impatient) you could easily throw in some things like: Make x passable sets of garb OR y types of good passing weapons, etc.

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PostSubject: Re: Bringing back Haven ranks   Sat Jul 23, 2011 1:41 pm

no eph its now Logar
constantine
svipdag
aandra (if she still fights)
khazz( idk if he is haven or merely clan)

An my arguement was if not everyone is part of boffer club, then the ranks shouldnt have anything to do with the realm. If you start maling it requirements to do stuff for boffer club to get ranks, what about.those who arent boffer club? We created this realm because our original realm was making decissions based on the area where the leaders were not the whole realm.
saddly I see this realm slowly growing into what we originally left...
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