Garb Initiative 2.0, or Trolololol

Taking the garb initiative one step further, I would like to see some changes reflected in our own realm to better ourselves as Dagorhirrim and to serve as a good example of how to play Dagorir well, and to better reflect a "dark age" europe atmosphere, circa 6th to 13th cent. that is more in the spirit of Dagorhir's original design.

Firstly, All new members would be given two months to acquire garb that meets the following requirements. If they do not have their garb in order in two months they will only be allowed to fight single blue and may not hold office or attain ranks.
-Tunic or dress of period [looking] material (ie linen, wool, or silk) and color (earth tones or approved dye)
-Tunic or dress must be of period pattern that has been approved (ie bocksten or kragelund style)
-Fitted hosen, trousers, or winningas of a period material, color, and approved period pattern
-A belt of braided cord or rope, if a leather belt us used it must have a buckle w/ prong.
-Shoes must be either of period design and material, or low profile enough as to not be obtrusive from ten feet away
-A hat or veil is encouraged but is not required, only period approved designs allowed
-Middle-eastern or asian characters may submit a request to waive these minimums in place of period accurate garb with respect to that culture.

So that our equipment also matches the garb initiative, members will be required to meet the following minimums for weapons and shields, failure to adhere will result in revocation of right to hold office or attain rank.
-NO flails, fanatsy-esque weapons, "buster" swords, or other unapproved design (at the herald's discretion)
-Weapons and shields must be within 3/4 of its medieval counterpart's accurate weight.
-Shields may only be round, elliptical, kite, or heater shaped. Total width may not exceed 30". Total height may not exceed 3'.
-Weapon covers must be colored either a metallic gray (for blades), or brown(for clubs ect.). Shield covers may show only period dye colors and designs, otherwise they must be brown or wood grained (painted)
-Shields may only be held actively by straps or center-grips. No back shields. If a center grip is used, there must be a foam shield boss on the face. Likewise, strapped shields may not have shield bosses. Shields must have a rigid core.

Armor rules will also be altered to reflect a more fulfilling play style and to reflect the realism of early medieval warfare.
-Armor designs must be approved by the herald for period design and material (resources will be made available to allow armorers easy access to period designs)
-If leather armor is used, it must be hardened(ie wax, glue, water, ect). Also, single green thrusts penetrate leather and mail armor on the first hit. All other strikes do damage normally.
-Early transitional plate armor (ie coat of plates, "soupcan" cops, and "gutter" greaves and vambraces) is the only approved plate metal armor. Double green thrusts penetrate on the second hit, instead of the first.
-Helms and helmets likewise must be period accurate, and must be strapped properly (no floating helms).

Unit structure will approximate the early middle ages and should promote better teamwork and effectiveness. Fantasy or a-historical unit personas will be discouraged. Accepted personas are norse, norman, frank, byzantine, greek, briton, ect.
-The "lance" will be the smallest unit and will comprise up to 5 fighters. Two of which must bear shields, one of which must bear a pole-weapon. Each lance will be required to designate a lance sergeant who must be knowledgeable in large-scale battle tactics and maneuvers.
-The "warband" will comprise individual lances and lance sergeants will be required to know how to work together in a large cohesive unit. Each warband will be led by a knight.

discuss

well this has to be the worst idea ive heard all year. I always knew you hated us stick jocks but really? if anything we should move in the oposite direction. cheap plastic armor and full contact hits. this will lead to us spending more time meeting rules than fighting

Taking the garb initiative one step further, I would like to see some changes reflected in our own realm to better ourselves as Dagorhirrim and to serve as a good example of how to play Dagorir well, and to better reflect a "geeky" college atmosphere, circa 1960 to 2000 that is more in the spirit of Rolla's original design.

Firstly, All new members would be given two months to acquire garb that meets the following requirements. If they do not have their garb in order in two months they will only be allowed to fight single blue and may not hold office or attain ranks (unless gained in bloody coup).
-T-shirt or sports jersey of period [looking] material (ie cotton, polyester,etc) and color (neon or black)
-T-shirt or jersey must be of period pattern that has been approved (ie three wolf moon)
-Fitted jeans or shorts of a period material, color, and approved period pattern
-A belt of leather or similar, if a leather belt us used it must have a buckle.
-Shoes must be either of period design and material, or low profile enough as to not be obtrusive from ten feet away
-A hat or baseball cap is encouraged but is not required, only period approved designs allowed
-LARP characters may submit a request to waive these minimums in place of period accurate garb with respect to that culture.

So that our equipment also matches the garb initiative, members will be required to meet the following minimums for weapons and shields, failure to adhere will result in revocation of right to hold office or attain rank.
-ONLY flails, fanatsy-esque weapons, "buster" swords, or random untested ideas(at the herald's discretion)
-Weapons and shields must be within 3/4 of its real-worldl counterpart's accurate weight.
-Shields may only be round, elliptical, infinite frictionless planes, or non-existant. Total width may not exceed the total width. Total height may not exceed the reach of your dreams.
-Weapon covers must be colored either a metallic gray (for guns), or brown(for sneak attacks at Mudgates.). Shield covers may show only period dye colors and designs, otherwise they must be dope or otherwise fly
-Shields may only be held actively by straps or center-grips, cause we're still not sure how magnets work. No black shields. If a center grip is used, there must be a foam shield boss at the level's end. Likewise, strapped shields may not have bosses, they exist in a socialist society. Shields must have a rigid core (in bed).

Armor rules will also be altered to reflect a more fulfilling play style and to reflect the realism of early stick jock warfare.
-Armor designs must be approved by the herald for period design and material (resources will be made available to allow armorers easy access to period designs, as long as the hobos don't get to the good cardboard first)
-If leather armor is used, it must be hardened(ie 5+ years in a maximum security prison). Also, single pelvic thrusts penetrate leather and mail armor on the first hit. All other strikes score ten pins.
-Early transitional plate armor (ie coat of plates, welded aluminum cans, and random hunks of metal you manage to attach to your body) is the only approved plate metal armor. Double green mana summons grizzly bears on the second hit, instead of the first.
-Helms and helmets likewise must be period accurate, and must be strapped properly (no floating helms, unless you're a SPOOKY GHOST).

Unit structure will approximate the early 1900s and should promote better teamwork and effectiveness. Fantasy or a-historical unit personas will be discouraged. Accepted personas are dead WWI soldier and ambulance driver (they will be required to write existentialist novels in order to portray this character)
-The "Lance" will be the last of the Elite 4 and use only dragon types. Two of which ride bears with shields, one of which must have a bear pole-weapon. Each Lance will be required to designate a dance sergeant who must be knowledgeable in large-scale dance tactics and maneuvers.
-The "warband" will sell for $30 and include material you could have gotten in a mod.

discuss

I was under the impression that Haven was made so people could play the game however they wanted as long as it was within the rules stated in the Dagorhir Manual of Arms. It looks like some of these rules (most of the weapon rules, for instance) infringe on the rights of the player to play how they want. If this isn't realm-wide legislation then it's not a problem. If you want to create a unit that strives to be as period-accurate as possible or if you're simply trying to encourage people to be more period, that's cool. Heck, if you want to submit this to the War Council sometime and they decide to change the MoA to include rules like this, then the rules change and people who want to keep playing must adapt. But as it stands, if Tyr wants to build a giant sword and cover it in crushed red velvet, he has the right to do so, and I have to oppose any legislation or requirements that would infringe on that. I'm not sure how much my word means around here anymore, but that's my two cents.

Also, I lol'd at Barca's post.

First of all, I laughed so, so hard at Barca's post, I can't even describe it. That is perhaps the greatest piece of lulz to ever grace our forums. Barca needs an award for hilarity.

Secondly, I really like a lot of Iohn's ideas. It takes a ridiculous amount of time for us to get our guys to acquire garb, and I think that's a good way of going about trying to correct the problem as far as that goes.

I'm also personally in favor of ruling out certain weapon types on the field that to me create a serious safety risk. The two things that I get injured by on the field the most are flails and unwieldy fantasy weapons. If we really want our sport to be about the fighting and playability, crap like that needs to be off the field.
Perhaps the only thing I don't agree with as far as weapons goes is having them be 3/4 the weight of the weapons they're portraying in foam, simply because that might present a safety hazard also in some cases.

I think the armor rules would be fairly easy to follow. People aren't forced to wear armor anyway, so it wouldn't necessarily be a requirement, just something for the more serious-minded Dagorhirrim to worry about.

Last but not least, I'm also a fan of getting rid of fantasy characters in place of historically accurate ones. We barely even have any fantasy characters in Haven as it is, and having a set model to work off of would significantly improve not only our look on the field, but our skill.

And Odin, wtf? It's thinking like that which is going to ruin our sport. Stick jock is NOT the way to go, especially when we're trying to start a new garb initiative to push things in the opposite direction. That had better be a troll comment.

depending on what fantasy-esq means, the weapon rule would be good. Garb, there are some people who just want to fight, so a loose working minimum would be good. Shields, idk, I just want to keep mine. weight could get interesting, since some of that stuff was heavy. I like the idea of imposing limitations on people who refuse to get garb, and I think we need to add/enforce a rule about having yur own weapons too.

lol Barca

Odin, if you don't like the proposals then why don't you come up with a better idea? I don't feel like compromising good ideas in place of devolving into a rag-tag pack of nerds flailing pixie sticks. If we don't alter the weapon weight minimums, give incentive to get garb, and disallow all the cheeze, our realm will end up just like all the others: tie-dye=garb, black=win, or flail=god mode.

The entire point of improving our own sport is that it will spill out onto other fields and improve the overall appeal of Dagorhir.

Iohn, if you're actually serious about these changes, you're going to have a hard time convincing people that these ideas will actually improve their Dagorhir experience. Frankly, if I was going to have to follow these rules, I'd give up and go participate in something that doesn't take itself so seriously.

Iohn, I agree that we should try to get our new fighters to acquire garb quickly, but I don't see how garb initiative "better[s] ourselves as Dagohirrim." We should, instead, encourage them to do get garb or ask the elders for help.

I know I was a freeloader for quite some time, but that was because you guys encouraged, not threatened, me to get garb. I'm sure that other newbies who understand garb's importance will catch on and do their best to acquire it. Telling them that they can't fight with their normal weapon sets until they get garb will only drive them away. Instead, you should encourage them to get garb so that they can go to events because it is the rules of the SPORT, not the club. That is why I asked for all sorts of help getting it.

Plus, I am coming up with all sorts of ideas to respect the medieval garment and creativity "rule" because i know that Dag isn't cosplay (i.e. no Cloud Strife or Link imitation). For example: I think that because my tunic is slightly bland, and because my character is a wolf and lives by killing things, I could add some fur to my tunic and possibly my boots. It would look cool and suit my character as well.

I will say, however, that I appreciate all your help with getting me started with my garb. It no only gave me something to represent Haven with at Gates 8, but it was unique to its own self.

And, as Constantine said, Haven was formed because its initial members were sick of oppression and being told what they should and shouldn't be. So, being a nazi goes against Haven's roots. At that rate, Iohn, you might as well forbid the participation of anything that isn't human because they never fought on the battlefield. (Sound familiar?) You might as well disband the Pack because werewolves don't really exist. But, oh wait, that's exactly what you just said!

Iohn deMar wrote:

Unit structure will approximate the early middle ages and should promote better teamwork and effectiveness. Fantasy or a-historical unit personas will be discouraged. Accepted personas are norse, norman, frank, byzantine, greek, briton, ect.

Bottom line: I agree to disagree with you. As a newbie, I will let you know that I would not want to keep fighting if I couldn't be reasonably within what I wanted to be. I HATE THE CHEEZE, Iohn, so don't even bother to tell me that i want us to become like them, because I'm making it clear right now that I don't! If anything needs changed: just get fighters to get garb. In case you're wondering, I'm not sure if you're wanting this sport to be any fun anymore.

I would agree that sounds extremely serious and would discourage new members. It sounds nice, but it would take awhile to rework a lot of gear.
Shields in our realm aren't really a problem, but I like how some people make coreless shields a one red hit shield. As far as weapons I think that as long as it isn't patterned, its ok. And yes I have green weapons, but some gray cloth really makes the weapon look like a toy.

I would however agree that it might be a nice initiative for a tournament or ranks to require garb. I would really be worried about public perception in general though if we always wore garb or something. I think it would be easier to have a new member fight and feel comfortable around us if we were wearing regular clothes. While yes it gives us a better identity as a group to be garbed, it also separates us a little bit and makes it more difficult to join.

In the case of a local tournament though, I would think that proper garb could add to the grandeur of the event. I am really interested in making open local events that are out there and inviting. Garb and setup might really help to make it seem like a different world and make the whole thing more attractive.

I think simply making a unit with these rules would solve a lot of problems. Hardcore role-players could be happy, stick jocks could be happy because they don't have to join the unit, no harm done. I just don't want to see Haven lose the spirit of freedom it had when it was created.

But I loves me barn door and flail with neon pink tie-dyed t-shirt combo.

Uh, I know that my previous comment proves otherwise, but doesn't this seem a bit strange, even for Iohn?

Dee derr ka derr! Angry commenters were getting trolled. He's not an officer anymore.

Derp on my behalf. <_>

That's some master level trolling right there. Iohn must have shifted into MAXIMUM OVERTROLL

Bad karma came around to those who got fooled.

I suspect that Iohn isn't trolling, but rather, he was playing Mount and Blade during a thunderstorm, all it took was a lucky strike to zap him and the computer, warping his mind and causing him to emulate a world where all clothing is period and there are no fantasy weapons. I can only imagine what would happen if he was playing Minecraft instead...

Goddamnit. You weren't supposed to figure that out so fast. >.< We had an elaborate plan and everything, and now you've ruined it. ._.

Jeiku, when you know someone's attempting to troll you, you must counter-troll them, the proper response in this case would have been to have lengthy discussions with Iohn about ways to aggressively pursue his agenda, until you can convince him you enthusiastically believe in his ideas, you would then make numerous topics on the national boards about Iohn's glorious reforms, with emphasis about how all realms should adopt them, you then wait for rage to ensue, express shock that people disagree, and tell them to discuss things with Iohn, as it was his idea

and that's how you counter-troll

Omg. Barca. Shud Up.

You should really listen to Barca, too, as he clearly has a lot of experience in counter-troll efforts. See his first post on this thread as an excellent example of this.

Thx constantine for mentioning me, I do believe I was the most outapoken against stuff like this, your takibg the fun away an in cases of the weapons actually making it dangerours, amtgard tried the weight thibg then threw it out cause people got hurt, an WHATS WRONG WUTH MY HUGE CRUSHED RED VELVET COVER SWORD?! Didnt you then make swords vigger then.mine? If u made that as heavy.as it should be ud seriously hurt someone, also staring counter-trolling NOW!

Taking the garb initiative one step further, I would like to see some changes reflected in our own realm to better ourselves as Dagorhirrim and to serve as a good example of how to play Dagorir well, and to better reflect a "dark" gothic atmosphere, circa 1920-present (Nosferatu-Underworld), that is more in the spirit of Dagorhir's original design.

Firstly, All new members would be given two moons to acquire garb that meets the following requirements. If they do not have their garb in order in two moons they will only be allowed to fight single fang (blue) and may not hold office or attain ranks.
-Trenchcoat of period [looking] material (ie leather) and color (ONLY BLACK)
-Tunic or dress must be of period pattern that has been approved (ie hot topic)
-Extremely tight or extremely baggy jeans of a period material, black, and approved period pattern
-A belt of black leather, if a leather belt us used it must have a bizarre buckle w/ prong.
-Boots must be either of period design and material, or high profile enough as to not be obtrusive from ten feet away
-A hat or cape is encouraged but is not required, only period approved designs allowed
-Transylvanian or Twilight vampires may submit a request to waive these minimums in place of period accurate garb with respect to that culture.

So that our equipment also matches the garb initiative, members will be required to meet the following minimums for weapons and shields, failure to adhere will result in revocation of right to hold office or attain rank.
-ONLY KATANAS MAY BE USED, to represent their superiority, katanas will go through armor in a one-handed slash or thrust
-Weapons must be within 3/4 of its medieval counterpart's accurate weight (unless you make an uber katana, ONLY OFFICERS GET UBER KATANAS)
-Shields may only be round, elliptical, blood-drop, or fang shaped. Total width may not exceed 30'. Total height may not exceed 3". SHIELDS MUST BE BLOOD RED
-Weapon covers must be colored BLOOD RED (for blades), or BLACK(for katanas). Shield covers may show only period dye colors and designs, otherwise they must be brown or wood grained (painted)

Armor rules will also be altered to reflect a more fulfilling play style and to reflect the uber-pwnage of vampires
-Armor designs must be approved by the herald for period design and material (resources will be made available to allow armorers easy access to period designs)
-ONLY leather armor is used, it need not be hardened(all trenchcoats count as armor). Also, single green thrusts don't penetrate leather and get stuck (the attacker must drop their weapon if they hit a trenchcoat. All other strikes do damage normally (unless you have uber armor, ONLY OFFICERS GET UBER ARMOR)
-Early transitional plate armor (ie coat of plates, "soupcan" cops, and "gutter" greaves and vambraces) won't be used. Armor can be made of steel or aluminum

discuss

Goddamnit Barca. Why aren't you just in comedy as a profession? I'm serious. I laugh so hard every time you post I probably literally have split my sides at this point. Everyone in our house ran to the table to read that last one, and everyone was cracking up.

New New New New Garb intuitive.
For the Haven Woods Battle in a few weeks

All persons fighting will be required to be as-period as possible during an event. This means all fighters will be strictly prohibited from showering on practice days. They may only do so IF it is raining during their usual shower slot and then they shall be required to use cold water and no soap of any kind.

Fighters for events should be mud covered, pee stained, and under nourished AT LEAST 2 DAYS PRIOR to the event to give the maximum period effect.

Also all weapons will be banned, save those made on site from Bozo the Clown, using Balloons. Rules of sufficient force will still apply, however.